Valar Guild

June 12, 2005 Meeting

5pm ESDT (GMT -5)

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Transcript team: Ar-Pharazon-(V), Eonwe-(Valar), Farmer Maggot-(V), Menelvagor-(Valar)

Attending: (8)
    ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), FladrifV, GilraenV, GwaihirValar, FarmerMaggot-(V)/bnetValar/Bridge, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V

Meeting Begins
    Varda, Eowyn, Sauron, Meriadoc, Elwing, Arwen went to the LotR Exhibit in Houston. Fangorn was called away to work.
Web page makers' news
    Article on the LotR Exhibit
    Games Page
    Humor Page
    LotRO New concept art: Crebain
    Forum RP new post
    WoW Battlegrounds is now out. Info on the two areas.
    Eonwe-(Valar)'s topic: Women in LotR: too many, not enough, just right? important, unimportant? why?

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
GilraenV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya, Aiya
ArPharazonV: and I thought I was late...
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
GwaihirValar: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: hey all
GilraenV: heya folks
ArPharazonV: I was ready to apologize for being late because we formed an anti-raid-raid in the wetlands and loch modan...
ArPharazonV: turns out I'm the first in the room!
Eonwe Valar: That's ok, we accept your apology anyway :}
ArPharazonV: heheh
Eonwe Valar: Guess we'll give it a couple of minutes to see if anyone else comes in and for me to gather news tidbits.
ArPharazonV: also, no one in the Sigmachat but me at this point
Eonwe Valar: I've sent an invitation to everyone on my list that's on.
Orodreth V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: heya Orodreth
Orodreth V: Hail
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar (17:14:56): Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: heya
Menelvagor Valar: slow night it seems
Eonwe Valar: Seems so, aye.
Eonwe Valar: I guess we'll go ahead and get started.

Eonwe Valar (17:16:17): Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.
Eonwe Valar: Member News:
Eonwe Valar: Varda and her familyare off to see a LotR exhibit, which is why she's not here :}
Eonwe Valar: Hopefully everyone else has excuses as good :}
Eonwe Valar: Anyone else have any member news?
Menelvagor Valar: doubtful :-)
ArPharazonV: no, not really...
Menelvagor Valar: didn't we have a new tolkien-only member?
Eonwe Valar: Pretty sure we announced him last week, as he came to last week's meeting.
Menelvagor Valar: *shrugs* must have been before I arrived
Eonwe Valar: That's likely :}
Eonwe Valar: But for those who didn't hear it last week, we do have a new Tolkien member, Tristin-(TV)
FladrifV has entered the room.
FladrifV: aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya

Eonwe Valar: OK, on to Web news:
Eonwe Valar: Elwing-(V) sent this link to an article from the Galveston Daily News newspaper
Eonwe Valar: (change "this" to "a".. I copy/pasted that :})
Eonwe Valar: It's from the viewpoint of a member of the SCA (Society for Creative Anacronisms). who are doing live demonstrations at the LotR exhibit Varda went to.
Eonwe Valar: *Vard aand her family
Menelvagor Valar: *scrapes throat* what are anacronisms?
Eonwe Valar: something that's chronologically out of place, like a watch in the Dark Ages.
Menelvagor Valar: thanks *smile*
ArPharazonV: or a phone-system in a medieval-set world?
Eonwe Valar: mp :}
Eonwe Valar: aye :}
ArPharazonV: bad, bad, Blizzard... buzzboxes...
ArPharazonV: Jumper Cables...
Eonwe Valar: The SCA does alot of Rennaissance and/or Medieval type stuff from my understanding.
Eonwe Valar: I hear some can make chain mail
ArPharazonV: or a watch on a Roman soldier...
ArPharazonV: or the shadow of an airplane in the sand of a chariot-race...
Eonwe Valar: or a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court :}
Eonwe Valar: I think we all understand now :}
ArPharazonV: was actually referring to well-known mistakes in Ben Hur :-)
Menelvagor Valar: or a Roman Soldier in the navy *giggle*
Eonwe Valar: That's ok,I was referring to a book by Mark Twain :}
ArPharazonV: ever seen the movie 'Black Knight'?
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Menelvagor Valar: there are more of that sort
Eonwe Valar: yes, but we're getting off-topic :} this can wait for After-meeting
Menelvagor Valar: aye, Eonwe *smile*
Eonwe Valar: or whispers if it can't hold that long :}
ArPharazonV: *gniffle*
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, check out the link that's on the News Page to read about some of the stuff the SCA is doing at the LotR exhibit.
bnetValar has entered the room.
bnetValar: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): we have a bridge!
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya FM
Eonwe Valar: Welcome Farmer :}
Menelvagor Valar: unless someone else is operating the bridge *smile*
ArPharazonV: well, I just see the bridgge
ArPharazonV: and isn't FM gone until... what was it... August?
bnetValar: FarmerMaggot (SigmaChat): Aiya
ArPharazonV: ah, there he is
Eonwe Valar: there's your answer :}
ArPharazonV: indeed
bnetValar: FarmerMaggot (SigmaChat): Forgot completely about the meeting, and AIM won't let me join the chat
Eonwe Valar: In other Web News: there's a new AIM upgrade
Eonwe Valar: that may or may not be why it wouldn't let you in, Farmer. I told it to upgrade later and it let me by no problems.
bnetValar: FarmerMaggot (SigmaChat): I'm using a third party client, shouldn't be any problem other than AIM being stupid, because the bridge got in fine
Menelvagor Valar: I have the upgrade
ArPharazonV: I never had a message about an upgrade...
Eonwe Valar: that's interesting, Phar.
ArPharazonV: this week, you say?
Eonwe Valar: it was just as I walked in that I got the message
Eonwe Valar: today.
ArPharazonV: well, I've had AIM on all day...
Menelvagor Valar: don't know when I got it, but was somewhere this week or last week
Eonwe Valar: I didn't get the message last week, and I really only get on for Sunday meeting.
ArPharazonV: perhaps if I closed AIM and restarted it, I'd get the message
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, we're getting side-tracked again
Eonwe Valar: perhaps.
ArPharazonV: I get on every single day, from the moment I turn my pc on... making the connection and switching AIM are mostly the first 2 things I do
ArPharazonV: *switching AIM on
Eonwe Valar: Games Page: I hope to do a bit more work on it as far as making sure gaming data is correct, and maybe a couple of other things. If you have a review for a game you'd like to write, remember we do take them for the Games Page.
Eonwe Valar: We have a few up there already.
Menelvagor Valar: is there one for WoW?
Eonwe Valar: not yet
bnetValar: FarmerMaggot (SigmaChat): be right back, gonna fix an annoyance in my SigmaChat client I'm on with
Menelvagor Valar: time to write one them *smile*
Menelvagor Valar: then*
Eonwe Valar: We still don't have one for Warcraft 3 :}
Menelvagor Valar: time to write 2 then *laugh*
Eonwe Valar: and we really could use one for Starcraft with as long as that's been out.. :} j/k :}
ArPharazonV: do we have any reviews?
Eonwe Valar: I just said we did Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: We have 2-3 I believe, last check.
ArPharazonV: oh, right, sorry
Eonwe Valar: 3
bnetValar: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): welcome back Farmer!
bnetValar: FarmerMaggot (SigmaChat): thanks
Eonwe Valar: Dungeon Seige, Comparison of a couple of MMORPGs, and the Helm's Deep mod for Counterstrike.
ArPharazonV: Dungeon Siege? well, that settles one of my most-played games then...
Menelvagor Valar: want them in webstyle, or just plain doc?
Eonwe Valar: These are reviews by members, for members, so we only get new ones when members review a game :}
Eonwe Valar: hmm let me see what the others are in.
ArPharazonV: who knows, if I can draw my eyes from WoW for a while, I might write one for Morrowind or something...
Eonwe Valar: As long as it can be read by MS Word, send it to me as a document.
Eonwe Valar: Apparently I just copied them over to an HTML file, so Word documents are fine.
Menelvagor Valar: will do
Eonwe Valar: Any other Web news?
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps it could be nice if you either converted all of them so that they would load in a new page, or load in the center of the current page
Menelvagor Valar: I have some webnews
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that is a bit strange that only two load in the center of the page.
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Menelvagor.
Menelvagor Valar: I did some few updates on the humor pages
ArPharazonV: yeah, heard that, but I can't seem to locate the links...
ArPharazonV: at least the link to the humor page
Menelvagor Valar: late last meeting I announced the links for the catapult gifs are now back up, as well as the images on the humor image page
Menelvagor Valar: try the "You know you're in Valar when..." page
Menelvagor Valar: there's an index link there to the other 2
ArPharazonV: thanks
ArPharazonV: catapults aren't working
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, I added a link to a document Haleth found on the web:
Menelvagor Valar: I haven't yet converted it to html, but I will sometime soon
Eonwe Valar: The images on the Tolkien in a Lighter Vein page aren't loading for me.
Menelvagor Valar: that's quite correct, Phar, due to circumstances, I had to host them on Geocities, which has the unfortunate side effect of not allowing more than a little of file transferrage
Menelvagor Valar: which means that the links and images will be down at certain times
ArPharazonV: 2 of the 3 images are working for me, Eonwe.. the third isn't
Eonwe Valar: figures
Eonwe Valar: good ol geocities :}
Menelvagor Valar: I'm still looking to a solution for this
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure we all wish you luck in this endeavor :}
Menelvagor Valar: also, I have changed the links for the humor index page, from splash to index, a slight error in terminology on my part
Menelvagor Valar: and that's it
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Menelvagor.

Eonwe Valar: On to Gaming News:
Menelvagor Valar: Battlegrounds is out for WoW!!!
Eonwe Valar: Aye, with a very long waiting list :}
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Menelvagor Valar: has anyone here tried either of them yet?
Eonwe Valar: Not I.
ArPharazonV: Vwoot! I found the first entrance, to Warsong Gulch! Didn't enter it yet, though... my questlog's quite full, most of the time...
ArPharazonV: but it seems quite nice, have had good reviews from Felka, in our Argent Dawn guild
Menelvagor Valar: I guess I'll give a little account of it then, although most of the info can be found on either bliz's wow pages
ArPharazonV: she joined yesterday, and has been an addict ever since :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I've tested them a little on the test realm
Eonwe Valar: GO for it Menel
Menelvagor Valar: First, there is the Warsong Gulch, located in the southeastern part of Ashenvale
Menelvagor Valar: It's a capture the flag based instance
Menelvagor Valar: the team who captures 3 flags is the winner
Menelvagor Valar: It's a good concept, although personally I think that those that can grab extra speed (i.e. expact of the pack for hunters etc.) have a tremendous advantage over classes that cannot
ArPharazonV: heheh... dash...
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Eonwe Valar: expact = aspect, I assume :}
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate, apart from the classes, the field is balanced with 2 bases on either side, each with 2 entrances, an upper and a lower one and the "flag room" connected to both
Menelvagor Valar: might be 3 entrances, not sure, been a while
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, Eonwe, not sure what's wrong with me, never made that many and gruesome typos ever before
ArPharazonV: you need sleep :-)
Menelvagor Valar: lol!
Menelvagor Valar: I've been awake for just about 2 hours
Eonwe Valar: Too much exposure to the orc language? :}
ArPharazonV: you need to wake up fully ;-)
ArPharazonV: still half asleep?
Menelvagor Valar: been playing KotOR 2 more than WoW lately
Menelvagor Valar: and nope, I tend to wake up instantly as soon as I get out of bed
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate, let me continue
Menelvagor Valar: The other Battlegrounds is Alterac Valley, with the Alliance entrance somewhat west and north of Southshore
Menelvagor Valar: it's massive
GwaihirValar: and you're lucky to get into it after 3 hours waiting on most servers lol
Menelvagor Valar: I'm not sure as to how many players can enter on each side
Menelvagor Valar: (played on test server, so didn't have to wait all that long *smile*
Menelvagor Valar: but it's at least 40
ArPharazonV: aye, they need more of those things... so people can spread out :-)
ArPharazonV: or just more instances per battleground...
Menelvagor Valar: players battle each other for control of the battlegrounds, and they can loot bodies of fallen players for scrapmetal and other items, such as Orc Blood, Troll Essence
Menelvagor Valar: all of which can be used in renewable quests that either advance your side, or gain you a little money
Menelvagor Valar:
Menelvagor Valar: everything about battlegrounds can be found there
Menelvagor Valar: too much to explain in here *smile*
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Menel :}
GilraenV: I'm off now folks. Early morning tomorrow. Namarie
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie, Gilraen
Eonwe Valar: Of course, this patch also does other things :}
GilraenV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: read the patch notes for full information :}
Menelvagor Valar: true, bit with BG so long on the waiting list, the other things contained in the patch have tended to dissolve into nothingness *smile*
ArPharazonV: like, fix the infamous tailoring bug...
ArPharazonV: and, again, no druid-improvements! bah!
FladrifV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: They didn't help Paladins either :} they didn't even touch the SoC bug.
Eonwe Valar: but anyway, on with Gaming News :}
ArPharazonV: they did fix one annoying thing, though...
ArPharazonV: they now put pets in the part-overview
ArPharazonV: much more handy for a healer or buffer
GwaihirValar: Pharazon, the problem is not the number of instances, but the numbers of horde.
ArPharazonV: buffer as in someone who puts buffs on party-members, not one who positions himself to take the blows...
Eonwe Valar: I'll have to try it to decide :}
Eonwe Valar: That's a good point, can't fill the Battleground with only Alliance.
Eonwe Valar: On with Gaming News: LotRO
Eonwe Valar: New concept art. On the table today: Crebain
Eonwe Valar:
Eonwe Valar: take a look and decide for yourself :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
ArPharazonV: well, we found some sort of Loch Ness-monster in WoW ;-)
ArPharazonV: in the deeprun tram
ArPharazonV: and a gnome in a diving suit
ArPharazonV: but that's just a small mention
ArPharazonV: oh, and I posted in the forum rp!
Eonwe Valar: in the Tram?
ArPharazonV: yes!
Eonwe Valar: or do you mean in the water as the Tram passes through the ocean?
GwaihirValar: Hunters haven't gotten any improvements either... we've been neglected and bugged in every patch from the time of the release of WoW
GwaihirValar: lol
ArPharazonV: that's what I mean, Eonwe, indeed ;-)
ArPharazonV: in the water
GwaihirValar: the only improvement that was actually an improvement was Dash... but its broken because the pet speed bug is still there :-)
ArPharazonV: but... it was so close... we could nearly touch it...
ArPharazonV: Nessie...
Eonwe Valar: I recall a few adjustments for the hunter in the past patch notes.
Eonwe Valar: one of your abilities works better against the Paladin after this patch. I'd say that's an improvement.
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
ArPharazonV: ooh! ooh! and your pets now show up in the party-overview! that's certainly an improvement :-)
Eonwe Valar: and pets follow faster when not in combat I believe, or something to that effect.
ArPharazonV: aye, read that too
ArPharazonV: I remember Fladrif having some problems with that before the patch... he had to re-summon his pet every few yards/miles/whatever
Menelvagor Valar: Paladins are one of the strongest classes in the game, yet they are no match for a well-trained Shaman
Menelvagor Valar: the pet-speed thing is even better for Warlocks, that they don't need a lot of soulshards to keep summoning their prized Voidwalkers or whatever
Eonwe Valar: Any Tolkien topics?
ArPharazonV: btw, I've spent the last few days doing several quest-series concerning the Scythe of Elune...
ArPharazonV: does anybody know if I'll ever get to see/equip the thing? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: no spoilers please :}
ArPharazonV: oh, ok
Eonwe Valar: I've done some in Astranaar and Darkshire, don't know of any other parts of that quest arc.
ArPharazonV: so far, the Astranaar-set led me to Darkshire
ArPharazonV: so it all ties in nicely
ArPharazonV: but no more spoilers from me ;-)

Eonwe Valar: OK, since no one else has a Tolkien topic, I will present one :}
Eonwe Valar: Women in LotR: too many, not enough, just right? important, unimportant? why?
ArPharazonV: well, there aren't any in the Fellowship, that's for sure...
Eonwe Valar: did there need to be?
Eonwe Valar: Would it have helped the mission any?
ArPharazonV: I can tell you I noticed that the woman partaking in the tale aren't that many...
ArPharazonV: *women
ArPharazonV: Arwen, Eowyn, Galadriel... and then it comes down to small parts like Rosie, Lobelia...
Eonwe Valar: Ioreth
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: couldn't remember her name for a moment
Eonwe Valar: the Ent-wives, though not directly in the tale
ArPharazonV: aye
Eonwe Valar: Dwarf women, though not directly in the tale.
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: Nimrodel and Luthien get a mention ;-)
Eonwe Valar: they play a part of sorts as well.
ArPharazonV: so does Elanor...
Eonwe Valar: I pose this for your consideration: there are plenty of women in the story, and each one is important.
ArPharazonV: but some more important than others
ArPharazonV: and very few more important than most of the men
Eonwe Valar: some are more directly involved to the main story line. does that make them more important?
ArPharazonV: to the story, yes
Menelvagor Valar: no
ArPharazonV: to the history of the War of the Ring, yes
Menelvagor Valar: and again no
Eonwe Valar: so Eowyn is then more important that Arwen?
Menelvagor Valar: think of it as if a nation is going to war....
ArPharazonV: good question, that... but I considered Arwen among the important ones
Menelvagor Valar: who is more important to that war, the soldiers who fight, and who we all have our eyes riveted on, or their loved ones, who remain home and work to keep them supplied with what they need?
Eonwe Valar: It was the love shared between Aragorn and Arwen that helped Aragorn through his trials.
Eonwe Valar: Good question, Menelvagor.
ArPharazonV: ooh! just remembered Goldberry! *shutting up now*
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Goldberry is another example of a woman :}
Menelvagor Valar: after all, although LotR is by and large a story, Tolkien also intended it to be part of a much larger history
ArPharazonV: with men, their valour and strength in war is more focused on, while with women it is their beauty
Eonwe Valar: What about Lobelia?
ArPharazonV: although their are some exceptions to this, it does portray the general picture
Menelvagor Valar: thus even when looking at LotR, we cannot easily dismiss any of the surrounding history or events, even those that we do not know
ArPharazonV: like Lobelia standing up the Big People...
ArPharazonV: and getting locked up
Menelvagor Valar: it's about the inner strength of women
Eonwe Valar: Lobelia isn't portrayed to be all that pretty, a meddling old woman if I may.
ArPharazonV: that's why I said there were exceptions, Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: So except for a few, women are only important because they're pretty?
ArPharazonV: same with Eowyn, as the focus there is also largely on her fighting-skills
Menelvagor Valar: the strength not to give in to anything once their minds have been set to a certain goal
Menelvagor Valar: throughout the history of M-E, there have been many men to have strayed from their paths, even the wise, such as Saruman, or Radaghast
Menelvagor Valar: but very few of the women, when they had a clear goal set in their minds, ever strayed from their paths
ArPharazonV: hmm... and never a woman... good observation
Eonwe Valar: I would pose that each woman in LotR is unique in a way some of the men are not, and thus each very important to the story.
Eonwe Valar: So, you are saying men are weaker than women in LotR?
Menelvagor Valar: you could say that while the men were about strength of arms, the women were their balance, to be the strength of the spirit
Menelvagor Valar: no
Eonwe Valar: Faramir strikes that right out Menel
Menelvagor Valar: if you look at characters like Aragorn and Gandalf, they held true to their paths, through immeasurable perils
ArPharazonV: ((another slight mention: Queen Beruthiel and her cats))
Eonwe Valar: Faramir was not about strength of arms, neither was Gandalf or Aragorn, or Elrond.
Menelvagor Valar: what I mean to say is, is that many of the people, women or men, can be divided into this crude opposition of men and women
Menelvagor Valar: but it does not mean that it is the case at all times
Eonwe Valar: I don't see that it need be the case in LotR :}
Menelvagor Valar: Eowyn was about strength of arms, as well as will
Menelvagor Valar: there are many throughout LotR that cross the line of this opposition
Menelvagor Valar: but the point is, in general, it is as I said, and it is a balance, not a matter of who is stronger
Eonwe Valar: I recommend reading Laws and Customs of the Eldar for Tolkien's view on the matter.
Menelvagor Valar: and even if you disregard that aspect, you still cannot view one of them as more important than another
Eonwe Valar: It's in Peoples of MIddle-Earth
Menelvagor Valar: don't have that book unfortunately
Menelvagor Valar: sure, you could not leave Frodo out of the story, or all would be ruined
Menelvagor Valar: but, what would happen if let's say, Lobelia was left out
Menelvagor Valar: what effects would that have had on the world
Eonwe Valar: simply put, both sexes of the Noldor are more or less equally capable, but each has their own inclinations.
ArPharazonV: who would Frodo have sold Bag End to? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, it would have a bigf effect on the Shire, Menelvagor.
Menelvagor Valar: indeed
Menelvagor Valar: and a big effect on the shire, would have had an effect on the Rangers guarding it, rippling ever outward
ArPharazonV: who would Saruman have turned to, without Lotho around?
Menelvagor Valar: LotR is set into a world that is alive and moving with the currents of time
Eonwe Valar: Lobelia's actions before the WotR and after Sharkey's takeover both had an important impact on the inhabitants of the Shire.
Menelvagor Valar: if we try to understand the story, we must understand that it is part of a larger whole
Menelvagor Valar: Each character, alone or with others, have had equal importance to the story
Eonwe Valar: She undergoes a redemptive process that I would almost compare to Boromir.
Menelvagor Valar: it is our human nature to try and place importance to what is happening, and disregard that which happens in an event that is not as largely known as something like war
Eonwe Valar: Then why aren't we doing it, Menel?:} Why are we examining something not as "largely known"? ;}
ArPharazonV: what is importance, exactly?
Menelvagor Valar: for example, who is more important at the Battle of the Pelenor Fields?
ArPharazonV: surely, some events, and therefore some people, have a greater influence on the development of the world
Menelvagor Valar: Eowyn, or the riders that fought alongside her and cleaved a way through enemy forces?
ArPharazonV: and the removal, or absence, of these people, will provide a greater shock to the world than of other people
ArPharazonV: so what is importance?
Menelvagor Valar: would the death of Theoden have come swifter or slower had there not been one of the Riders of his personal guard to ride by his side?
ArPharazonV: is the death of Theoden really that important? whether it was swifter or slower?
Eonwe Valar: Theoden's death might've been prevented had not Faramir's been close.
Menelvagor Valar: aye, Eonwe
Menelvagor Valar: but that is not entirely the point
Eonwe Valar: What about Ioreth? What importance does she hold?
Menelvagor Valar: the thing is, of what importance were those unnamed, that fell and gave their lives for a greater good?
ArPharazonV: yet on the general outcome of the war, on the further survival of ME... would Theoden's survival really have made such an important difference?
Eonwe Valar: I'm afraid I don't entirely see your point then, because it seems for the most part we've moved off of talking about the women of LotR.
Menelvagor Valar: right, Eonwe, but it brushes on them closely, since it is a matter of "importance" that brought them up in the first place
ArPharazonV: one could argue that Ioreth was not important to the War of the Ring, since none of the 'known' characters her healing saved, had any major achievements in the rest of the War...
ArPharazonV: with the possible exception of Merry in the Shire
Eonwe Valar: everyone is important because everyone has a part to play, a part they may choose to play. If they do not choose to play that part, then there is discord and no one can wholly fill the part the other was meant to play.
Menelvagor Valar: what would have happened if an "unimportant" character would have been left out of the story?
ArPharazonV: probably nothing important :-)
Menelvagor Valar: which is exactly my point Eonwe
ArPharazonV: but is it important that every role is played to the end?
Eonwe Valar: Well ok, then we're attuned :}
Eonwe Valar: So relate that all back to the women in LotR now to bring it full circle :}
ArPharazonV: does a shift in these roles really have a great influence on the greater whole?
Menelvagor Valar: what's the name of Beregond's son?
ArPharazonV: Bergil, I think
Eonwe Valar: Bergil
Menelvagor Valar: ok
Eonwe Valar: Yes
Menelvagor Valar: now, to the story, he is an alltogether unimportant character, would you agree?
ArPharazonV: less important than others, I could say
Menelvagor Valar: then, what would have happened if pippin had not met him?
Eonwe Valar: Sauron traded sides, while a great smith under Aul� he wouldn't have been important to the story of Middle-Earth had he not turned evil.
Menelvagor Valar: aye Eonwe
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps I could point it out with an easier explanation, from The Sword of Truth series
ArPharazonV: interesting thought, Eonwe... if a character has to play his part to become important, does that mean he was important from the start?
ArPharazonV: or just that his role was important?
Menelvagor Valar: what difference does a simple pebble make when tossed into a pond?
Eonwe Valar: he was important because he has the power to choose. But I sense a discussion on that that we should save for next week :}
Menelvagor Valar: it will sink to the bottom and be forgotten
ArPharazonV: a small circle of ripples, that moves outwards towards the edges, until slowly the water is still again
Menelvagor Valar: aye
ArPharazonV: and it is all forgotten
ArPharazonV: therefore, it isn't important
Menelvagor Valar: but the ripples that it creates, touches all
ArPharazonV: do they? do they effect the land around the pond in a significant way?
ArPharazonV: do they alter the pond in any significant way after they're gone?
Eonwe Valar: a hurricane can start as a small breeze.
ArPharazonV: in that case, is the breeze itself already important? or just the role it plays in a later part of its 'career'?
Menelvagor Valar: indeed, Phar
Menelvagor Valar: but we would have dismissed the breeze as unimportant when we felt it on our skin
Eonwe Valar: is it unimportant merely because we cannot understand its importance?
Menelvagor Valar: but when it would turn to a hurricane, it would gather importance, as that which was one of the things that started the hurricane
ArPharazonV: is it unimportant just because we can't oversee, or predict, its later importance?
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Eonwe Valar: no
ArPharazonV: but the point with the lotr-characters is, we can oversee its later importance
ArPharazonV: we read the consequences of earlier actions
Eonwe Valar: and my argument is that all the women in LotR are important :}
ArPharazonV: and therefore, should be able to judge the importance of the characters in those earlier actions
ArPharazonV: and because we can oversee the consequences, it should be possible to discern important characters from the unimportant characters, concerning those earlier events
Menelvagor Valar: my argument is that anything, living or dead has the same importance, whether it be dominant or as a possible means for later events
Menelvagor Valar: it is what we humans view of "importance" alters the view of the importancy of things
ArPharazonV: importance is in the eye of the beholder?
Eonwe Valar: Mine is that each has a unique importance, so I guess we are at odds
Menelvagor Valar: aye to that, Phar
Menelvagor Valar: and for Eonwe, we are not at odds, we just choose to word it differently
Menelvagor Valar: thus by our own designs of what we view as important, including the words we choose, makes us think that one or the other holds greater importance, making it seem we are at odds
ArPharazonV: interesting, Menel... it is what we can oversee that creates our view of importance...
Eonwe Valar: I would also say the living are more important than the dead.
Eonwe Valar: At least as long as you're living.
ArPharazonV: tell that to the Army of the Dead, and the civilians of Lebennin :-)
Menelvagor Valar: well... the thing is, would the memory of your beloved sister, brutally murdered not alter the way things you would do?
Menelvagor Valar: even the dead leave lasting impressions on us, causing us to act upon those impressions
ArPharazonV: but is it not than the memory of the living sister that's important?
Menelvagor Valar: true
ArPharazonV: from the moment she's dead, she herself is not that important
Menelvagor Valar: but had she not died, things would have progressed differently
Eonwe Valar: Then your initial explanation is not clear enough.
ArPharazonV: just the memory, and the way she died
Menelvagor Valar: true
ArPharazonV: her death is important
Eonwe Valar: Or rather, the one that I said we were at odds over.
ArPharazonV: not she herself after her death
Menelvagor Valar: but the point is, even while being dead, she still holds importance as to what your actions may or may not be
Menelvagor Valar: but then in the form of a memory
ArPharazonV: the memory of her being alive
Eonwe Valar: I can agree with that.
ArPharazonV: and of her death
Menelvagor Valar: phar, you are thinking too abstractly
ArPharazonV: what remains of her life, in your thoughts, remains important
Menelvagor Valar: that everything has to have a clean and straight connection to what is
ArPharazonV: she herself, within death, has little further importance
Eonwe Valar: based on what happened, I may choose to do something different in my life, or I may not/
Menelvagor Valar: but life simply isn't that simple, we are connected to some things in very odd ways, that we simply can't grasp the full reality of
ArPharazonV: in that case, is it I who is thinking to abstractly? ;-)
ArPharazonV: *too
Menelvagor Valar: the thing is, the memory of her life and her death is connected to her, thus she, even being dead, holds importance over your life
ArPharazonV: hmm, that could be true...
Eonwe Valar: Her physical form even has further effect, eventually decaying and returning to the earth.
Menelvagor Valar: but because she herself, not being directly connected to us, does not hold further importance
ArPharazonV: but whatever happens to her after death, whatever role she plays after she's death, and change in that role she plays, has no further effect on that memory or her death, and thus not to you
Eonwe Valar: not to be too gruesome here.
Menelvagor Valar: what it seems to us anyways
ArPharazonV: ah, there's a whole new point alltogether, Eonwe
Menelvagor Valar: I think you have all seen "The Lion King"?
Eonwe Valar: The point I think and hope we're all trying to make here is that each person's life touches another's in a way that no other person can.
ArPharazonV: in that case, we cannot oversee the consequences over her death
Eonwe Valar: El Siglo sin Fin, yes :}
ArPharazonV: since we cannot see what happens to her building-blocks of life after she's dead, and cannot see the further role they may have to play
Menelvagor Valar: it tells about "The Cirlce of Life"
Menelvagor Valar: that everything is connected to each other
ArPharazonV: we cannot oversee her death, or her specific role in 'the circle of life', and therefore are incapable of judging her importance
Menelvagor Valar: indeed Phar
Eonwe Valar: No one will ever have an effect in my life like Menelvagor, and no one will affect Menelvagor's like Pharazon. That's the basic idea.
ArPharazonV: right, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: but are these effects equally important?
Eonwe Valar: We can agree that each person is uniquely important.
Menelvagor Valar: aye
ArPharazonV: yes, we can
ArPharazonV: but we cannot say that one cannot be more important than the other
Eonwe Valar: that's not what I'm saying.
Menelvagor Valar: and so we come to an end of a very, very deep philosophical discussion *smile*
Eonwe Valar: good, only took us 20 minutes :}
Eonwe Valar: now that we've solved that, let's talk about how the women in LotR are important :}
ArPharazonV: hmm.. I see your point now, Menel... or I might...
ArPharazonV: everyone and everything is important, in some way.. but some are more important than others, is what I'm saying
Eonwe Valar: Some play bigger roles
Eonwe Valar: but Aragorn would be nowhere if the Rangers didn't choose to fulfill their roles.
ArPharazonV: but it depends on your definition... what exactly equals 'unimportance' now?
ArPharazonV: is 'unimportance' a concept that can never be visualized?
Menelvagor Valar: and thus we continue what we just ended *wink*
ArPharazonV: just trying to wrap things up, Menel :-)
ArPharazonV: the loose ends to my thoughts
Eonwe Valar: Let's agree that people are important, ok?
Eonwe Valar: do we?
ArPharazonV: sure, but some are more important than others ;-)
Eonwe Valar: We have roles to fullfill based on our abilities. Our reactions and choices help us on our way to fulfill that role.
Menelvagor Valar: of course, every man and woman and child in LotR had their own unique importance to the story, and the matter as to HOW important, is in fact, unimporant :-D
ArPharazonV: unimportant to you, Menel... eye of the beholder ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Some affect the world on a greater scale because they have made the choices to get that far.
Eonwe Valar: to put it short:
Eonwe Valar: Some people are meant to be up on stage, and some people are meant to be behind the curtain. It depends on the abilities and skill of each person, but the production cannot be pulled off without any one of them.
Eonwe Valar: That's the best way Ican put it.
Eonwe Valar: and to add, nobody should be in the audience. THis show shouldn't have spectators, only participants.
Menelvagor Valar: I have nothing to add to that
Eonwe Valar: *best way I can put it while keeping it short.
ArPharazonV: hey, don't forget the supporters in Soccer-games... they are the audience, in some form :-)
ArPharazonV: and yet, they can still effect the players
ArPharazonV: and yet, because they do effect the players, they could be seen as players as well
ArPharazonV: just of less importance, individually ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: thus, they are in fact part of the play
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: the only audience possible, in that definition, is one that cannot interact in any way with the players
Menelvagor Valar: and when they go home and tell their children about the match, those children are drawn into the play
Eonwe Valar: let's say the people on and behind the stage are human beings and leave spectators/cheerleaders etc to whatever you want to fill that with.
Menelvagor Valar: and eventually extends to everything we know and do not know
Menelvagor Valar: I believe someone wrote a song about that once
Menelvagor Valar: "Life is a playground" or something like that
ArPharazonV: what if something, within that everything you mentioned, is completely isolated in every way from interaction with the rest...
Menelvagor Valar: the whole world is one giant stage
ArPharazonV: would it still be part of the play?
ArPharazonV: could we even identify it?
Eonwe Valar: The point of the the analogy was that when every person does their part, the production goes on smoothly, but not everyone chooses to do what they are meant to do.
Menelvagor Valar: and we are at some parts the "spectators" or actors or people behind the scenes
ArPharazonV: if they choose not to do anything, and as a consequence, do not do it, are they really meant to do it?
Eonwe Valar: Some curtain-guys try to be the lead character, some lead characters would rather hide out in the make-up room.
Menelvagor Valar: I have a feeling that we are heading towards a theological discussion
ArPharazonV: I have a feeling none of us got to convince the others completely of their entire point ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I don't think we're there yet, but about 20 minutes more of this and we might be.
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps we should stop here and just agree to that everyone holds his or her own importance in the eye of the beholder
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: and even that which the eye cannot see, may hold like importance ;-)
Eonwe Valar: So does that mean we can discuss the women again ? ;}
Menelvagor Valar: no, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: that would mean we would simply go on where we left off
Menelvagor Valar: and trying to explain why will only trigger the discussion to move forward, so I won't
Eonwe Valar: Only since we seemingly can't agree on importance.
Menelvagor Valar: because it is in the eye of the beholder
Eonwe Valar: And that comment there could spark a discussion on the beholder :}
ArPharazonV: everything is important in its own way, some things more important than others, but because no beholder can oversee all consequences, no beholder can judge the importance of anything...
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, the point I was hoping to come to some agreement under was that
Menelvagor Valar: well, if you would be happy to discuss about your views and ours, we will continue until we are old and withered and die
Menelvagor Valar: we believe what we believe and nothing is going to change that
Eonwe Valar: the women in LotR are not merely bit players as some would like to think.
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Eonwe Valar: They are well represented and that each woman is unique in a way even some of the men are not.
ArPharazonV: everything's important, but because the eye of the beholder cannot see anything, we cannot determine exactly what's more important than others... does anything disagree with this point?
Menelvagor Valar: and vice versa
ArPharazonV: ok, we can move on then
Eonwe Valar: You often here Faramir, Denethor, Gandalf, and Aragorn compared amongst them.
Menelvagor Valar: I think that's one of the greatest flaws in mankind
Eonwe Valar: However, you do not hear Goldberry compared to Rosie.
Menelvagor Valar: always trying to compare people to other people
Menelvagor Valar: everyone is unique and cannot be compared
ArPharazonV: it's the only way to create an overview, Menel :-)
Eonwe Valar: And the one comparison between Arwen and Galadriel rather than making them seem alike point out how different they are.
ArPharazonV: the flaw in mankind is needing that overview
Menelvagor Valar: aye, Phar
Eonwe Valar: each plays a unique role as well.
Menelvagor Valar: aye, Eonwe
Menelvagor Valar: the importance of women in LotR simply comes down to "they were there and that makes them important in their own respective way"
ArPharazonV: but is every role equally imp... *closes mouth hastily*
Eonwe Valar: And I would almost go further to say that each woman represents a female type/archetype/steroetype, whichever you are more comfortable with.
ArPharazonV: archetype sounds nice...
Eonwe Valar: No two women's personalities are alike.
Menelvagor Valar: I will choose to ignore that last comment, Eonwe *smile*
Eonwe Valar: Lobelia is nothing like Rosie is not like Arwen.
ArPharazonV: and yet, you feel like 'categorizing' them in archetypes? there's that comparing agian...
ArPharazonV: *again
Menelvagor Valar: put that in circle, you get the following equation:
Eonwe Valar: arg, give me a sec, and I'll be right back/
Eonwe Valar: got to do something real quicdk
ArPharazonV: 1 + 1 = 2 because 2 - 1 = 1?
Menelvagor Valar: Lobelia is nothing compared to Rosie, as Rosie is nothing like Arwen, as Arwen is nothing like Lobelia, in their own set of events
Menelvagor Valar: you get more like "1 is not 2 is not 3 is not 1
Menelvagor Valar: "
ArPharazonV: what does 'set of events' include? personality, actions, influence on the story?
Menelvagor Valar: set of events meaning "in which they were the key figure"
Eonwe Valar: ok back
ArPharazonV: I must say one thing, though, before we this is over... this discussion has been more satisfying to me than most other discussions I have had about such theoretical viewpoints...
Eonwe Valar: my point is similar to this.
Menelvagor Valar: and the reason for that Phar?
Eonwe Valar: Lobelia is "the" meddling old woman. She's always bothering Frodo, trying to get her hands in everything, not well liked by anyone.
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure you've seen tv or know people like this.
ArPharazonV: not sure... for once, I have actually been able to get most of my view off my chest, while not repelling you with incessant questioning...
ArPharazonV: the agreement was rather nice, in the end...
Menelvagor Valar: I know what is so satisfying about it
ArPharazonV: most other such discussions leave me with so many loose ends, complete disagreement and misunderstanding, and basically no results whatsoever
ArPharazonV: this one had at least some agreement
Menelvagor Valar: because it makes our mind work, to try to grasp the nature of our being, because it gives us a new light to the age-old question: "What are we and why are we?"
Eonwe Valar: Arwen gives us an example of Romantic love, while with Galadriel we get more of an example of the glorfied courtly love.
Eonwe Valar: Ioreth is a gossip.
ArPharazonV: no, Menel, more concrete than that... it was satisfying to me, for I have finally been able to get my view out in proper words, something I rarely succeed in in other discussions... because noone got misunderstood in the end...
ArPharazonV: it gives me hope for the future :-)
Eonwe Valar: I'm still working on what way exactly Goldberry and Rosie are different, as they are both representatives of wives.
Eonwe Valar: But I guess the interest for this conversation died a while ago, so I'll stop there.
ArPharazonV: no, go on
ArPharazonV: just thinking
Menelvagor Valar: well, as to the difference between them, that is a bit obvious
ArPharazonV: Goldberry seems a bit more glorified than Rosie, that's for sure
Eonwe Valar: Ah, I think I got it, Goldberry gives us "Wife" and Rosie gives us "Mother."
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: just thinking about Goldberry standing on the ridge, waving goodbye to the hobbits... gives a sense of awe
Menelvagor Valar: had Goldberry not been there, Tom would not have come down the (whatever the name of the stream is) and not rescued the hobbits from "Old Man Willow"
ArPharazonV: something that could never have been achieved with Rosie
Eonwe Valar: Going on this, it seems the Entwives represent a female personality that Tolkien was not happy with.
Menelvagor Valar: Goldberry is more like the statuesque and mysterious "wife" and Rosie more the common man's "wife"
ArPharazonV: while ents were more concerned with the forests and the trees, entwives were more concerned with small plants and flowers, and even agriculture...
Eonwe Valar: The Entwives as told by the Entsong given by Fangorn seemed to not be satisfied with anything the Ents did.
Eonwe Valar: The Entwives also seemed more interested in telling the plants what and how to grow as opposed to the Ents' letting the trees grow how they may.
ArPharazonV: although the wife of the mayor of the Shire would gain some 'statuesque' ...something
Eonwe Valar: that's an interesting point on "wife," Menel.
Eonwe Valar: I think. I'm not sure why she would be a "mysterious" wife..
Menelvagor Valar: statuesque means something like ideal
ArPharazonV: really? in that case, what's the word I'm looking for?
Menelvagor Valar: because in the story, we get to know next to nothing about her, her entire being is a mystery to us
Eonwe Valar: Well I suppose, but I think it's almost safe to say Luthien is Tolkien's ideal :}
Menelvagor Valar: we don't know of her motivations to be with Tom, and with Rosie, her love is obvious
Menelvagor Valar: I would say that Tolkien held 2 ideals
ArPharazonV: Tom brought her pretty flowers ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: that's not exactly what I mean...
Eonwe Valar: I guess it's hard to resist a guy that brings you flowers :}
Eonwe Valar: But if that were the case the Ents would've won over the Entwives easily :}
Eonwe Valar: but go on about the two ideals, Menel
ArPharazonV: I think the Ents were not that interested in giving the Entwives flowers ;-)
ArPharazonV: but aye, go on
Menelvagor Valar: was just thinking on something
Menelvagor Valar: Arwen's other name was Undomiel, right?
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Menelvagor Valar: what was the translation of that?
ArPharazonV: Evenstar?
Menelvagor Valar: aye
ArPharazonV: and Luthien was Nightingale...
Menelvagor Valar: which would be another word of "Star of the evening"
ArPharazonV: gah... I read something about this recently, I just know it...
Menelvagor Valar: and then there was Idril Celebrindal (or something like that)
Menelvagor Valar: which means something like "Light of morning"
ArPharazonV: Arwen as the Evening, Galadriel as the afternoon or morning...
ArPharazonV: I know I read that somewhere...
Menelvagor Valar: with that, I believe Tolkien wanted to tell us something
Eonwe Valar: That's when Eomer and Gimli had their argument.
Menelvagor Valar: that even though Idril and Arwen were both of stunning beauty
ArPharazonV: ah, thank you, Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: mp
Menelvagor Valar: that you could compare them to each other like you could compare the beauty of morning to the beauty of night
ArPharazonV: was Idril goldenhaired? can't recall...
Eonwe Valar: No, She was Noldorin
ArPharazonV: right
Eonwe Valar: Only one family in that house had Gold hair, and she wasn't in ir.
Eonwe Valar: *it.
ArPharazonV: the house of Finarfin
ArPharazonV: she was from Fingolfin's house
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Menelvagor Valar: oh
Menelvagor Valar: Celebrindal means "silverfoot"
ArPharazonV: heheh
Eonwe Valar: I was wondering where Idril came into this
ArPharazonV: Celeb means silver, we should have remembered that
Eonwe Valar: I could understand Luthien, Galadriel, and Arwen, but Idril threw me off.
Menelvagor Valar: my mistake
Menelvagor Valar: part of my obsession with Turgon I think *wink*
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: hmm.. about Elven women... it's said that Luthien is the most beautiful of all the Children
Eonwe Valar: If you watch the commentaries on the EE of RotK, one of them guys
ArPharazonV: and Arwen is practically a repeat of Luthien's beauty
ArPharazonV: does that mean she was generally seen as more beautiful than her grandmother?
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate, I think you are right about your statement that Luthien was Tolkien's ideal
Eonwe Valar: (I think Tom Shippey) mentions that the story of Beren and Luthien and Aragorn and Arwen is sort of the same story
Eonwe Valar: not same as in details of course
GwaihirValar: except Aragorn comes out of it with both hands intact?
ArPharazonV: heheh
Menelvagor Valar: *laugh*
Eonwe Valar: it's an intangible explanation, so you'll have to watch it to understand :}
Menelvagor Valar: I see the similarities from what I remember
Eonwe Valar: Is anyone still up for Tolkien chat? because I want to try and take this one step further :}
ArPharazonV: Gwaihir, don't tell me you've been watching us all this time, just waiting to make a witty remark? ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: however, I also know that Tolkien (may or may not) tried to explain that comparisons aren't easily made
Menelvagor Valar: that's the Eagle's way, Phar
ArPharazonV: he didn't like analogies, that's for sure
Eonwe Valar: he didn't like alegory
ArPharazonV: *right, alegory
Eonwe Valar: analogies are different.
ArPharazonV: sowwy about that
Menelvagor Valar: flying high above and stooping in for the kill when the time has come *smile*
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: so, shall I continue? :}
Menelvagor Valar: what's the difference between alegories and analogies?
ArPharazonV: ^good point
Eonwe Valar: Allegory is a direct line kind of thing, i.e. the War of the Ring represents World War 2
Menelvagor Valar: I'm very good at languages, but rules and such on those languages have passed me by completely
Eonwe Valar: Frodo = Christ, that kind of thing.
Menelvagor Valar: ok
ArPharazonV: the Ring represents the nuke...
Menelvagor Valar: Frodo = Christ is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard btw
ArPharazonV: heheh
ArPharazonV: he sacrifices his health to save the world? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: "A figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another"
Menelvagor Valar: Sauron = Hitler or Bush, depending on who makes the alegory
Eonwe Valar: let's not get into those please :}
ArPharazonV: comparing the Ring to the Nuke is btw one of the most silliest things I've heard, but still...
Menelvagor Valar: of course not, just mentioning it
Menelvagor Valar: and analogies?
ArPharazonV: that would imply the nuke was actually created by Hitler, or the Nazis
ArPharazonV: hmm.... did Einstein work on the atomic bomb? with German technology?
Menelvagor Valar: which is in fact true, since it was a german scientist who brought the plans for nukes with him to the US
ArPharazonV: or was that not Einstein?
Menelvagor Valar: Einstein was the guy of the relativity theory
Eonwe Valar: So we've moved to history? :}
ArPharazonV: gah... too many scientists...
ArPharazonV: no, to allegory :-)
Menelvagor Valar: which has its own impending sidetracks *laugh*
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: and, of course, Hitler sent a few Black Riders after the scientist, trying to get the plans back...
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, Eonwe, then what's analogies?
Eonwe Valar: Point being, Tolkine hated Allegory, and you can read his Exlpanation in the Forward to LotR :}
ArPharazonV: anyway, gotta go to sleep
ArPharazonV: it's been fun
Eonwe Valar: aw
ArPharazonV: be sure to save the rest! I want to read it!
Eonwe Valar: take care and sleep well.
Menelvagor Valar: of course he hated it, he created M-E to be a world of its own, not to be compared to our own lives, can't blame him for that
Eonwe Valar: no analogies really, just was explaining the difference to Phar, who said Tolkien hated analogies.
Eonwe Valar: There are lessons one can learn from LotR, however.
ArPharazonV: I mixed them up.. so sue me...
Menelvagor Valar (19:51:47): I know, but I want to know what analogies are in order to understand the difference
ArPharazonV: saved, btw
Eonwe Valar: Example would be like they give on standardized tests: dog is to puppy as cat is to ______
ArPharazonV: and I wonder why I'm getting empty emails in my spam...
ArPharazonV: (no subject) Spam
ArPharazonV: (unknown sender)
ArPharazonV: and an empty mail
Eonwe Valar: the answer is of course kitten.
Eonwe Valar: "a partial similarity on which a comparison may be based"
Eonwe Valar: "a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect on the basis of the known similarity in other respects."
Eonwe Valar: dow that help?
Eonwe Valar: *does
Menelvagor Valar: it does
Menelvagor Valar: however
Menelvagor Valar: I think it also means that an analogy can easily be mixed up with an alegory if not careful
bnetValar: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): *meow*
Eonwe Valar: perhaps.
ArPharazonV: sorry, couldn't resist with the cat-conversatioin
ArPharazonV: btw, it is sent
ArPharazonV: don't forget to send the rest!
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: sleep well
ArPharazonV: thank you
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie
Eonwe Valar: Care to continue the conversation or save the remainder for next week?
ArPharazonV: either way, save the rest of the transcript ;-)
ArPharazonV: or we won't recall where we left off
Eonwe Valar: got it :}
ArPharazonV: ok
ArPharazonV: bye
Menelvagor Valar: well, I would be glad to continue, but it would be a better discussion if we could have others interfering with our works *wink*
Eonwe Valar: I'll remember the important part :}
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: OK, we'll pick up next week of our treatment of women in LotR and expand it into some of what we've already talked about: relationships :}
ArPharazonV: Nam�ri�! And don't forget to read the RP!
ArPharazonV: my next post will be at the end of the current day, and will start Calaron's storyline
Menelvagor Valar: the one about importance was all the more interesting since we were both trying to get Phar to see what we were seeing in our own perspective ways, what in turn created a minor difference in what we thought the other was saying and.
Menelvagor Valar: therefore propelling the discussion to even greater heights
Eonwe Valar: ok Phar. I'll post mine later this week.
ArPharazonV: aye, but I understood it eventually... and found it was not as far from my own views as I had thought ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: indeed
Menelvagor Valar: we did a good job helping this mortal find wisdom, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: heheh
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: /bow
ArPharazonV: oh, wait, that doesn't work here..
Menelvagor Valar: *bow*
ArPharazonV: /bye
Menelvagor Valar: just put emotes in asterisks and it works
Eonwe Valar: That was a long discussion :}
Menelvagor Valar: *waves goodbye*
Eonwe Valar: /take care :}
Menelvagor Valar: and the best one I've seen in a long time too
ArPharazonV: aye, about two thirds of the transcript
ArPharazonV: that's longer, in comparison, to the what-if story Varda and I created 2 weeks ago...
Eonwe Valar: ok, guess I'll have to urge people to read the Transcript to know where we're picking up next week :}
ArPharazonV: hahah
Menelvagor Valar: we could give a small summary of what happened
ArPharazonV: good luck with that ;-)
Eonwe Valar: aye, that'd be a good idea.
Eonwe Valar: \\
Eonwe Valar: OK, Meeting Adjourned. *Bangs Gavel*
Menelvagor Valar: it would be hopelessly inadequate, but we can always try our best
ArPharazonV: may Elune shine upon you! hmm... something's wrong with that sentence... may the light of Earendil shine upon you!
Eonwe Valar: A little better :}
Menelvagor Valar: which leaves me but one question *smile*
Menelvagor Valar: what did you think of my RP post, Eonwe?
ArPharazonV: btw, the final version... Earendil or Earendel?
Eonwe Valar: Earendil
ArPharazonV: ok
Menelvagor Valar: personally, I think Earendil sounds better
Eonwe Valar: the latter is the early version
Eonwe Valar: found in HoME
ArPharazonV: with all those histories and books reading through each other... hard to keep track :-)
ArPharazonV: ok, g'bye
ArPharazonV: again
ArPharazonV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: take care :}
Eonwe Valar: I'll have to reread your part, Menel :}
Eonwe Valar: Let's see if I can recall enough of it first though.
Menelvagor Valar: ok :-)
Eonwe Valar: You pulled me off to the side, told me that your people have been watching the West since the First Age, then..
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Eonwe Valar: told me you believe the war to come is going to be waged in the West and that you'd like to accompany me on my quest.
Menelvagor Valar: yup
Eonwe Valar: Well, nothing in it sends me into High-Alert, so to speak :}
Menelvagor Valar: which means?
Eonwe Valar: you're not riding a wolf, for example :}
Menelvagor Valar: I've decided to not include that *smile*
Menelvagor Valar: although I am an avid fan of "Elfquest" I though it best not to include that *smile*
Eonwe Valar: a very good idea :}
Menelvagor Valar: you had no small part in dissuading me
Menelvagor Valar: but other than that, I want to know what you think of it, if you can find any inconsistencies in my story
Eonwe Valar: Inconsitencies as compared with the story itself or with Tolkien?
Menelvagor Valar: both actually
Menelvagor Valar: and I know the biggest is "the scouts sent to watch the West"
Menelvagor Valar: but since Tolkien never mentioned any of it, I thought it could just as easily be interpreted as hidden
Eonwe Valar: Well, I'm not really sure how likely Avari would be to "spy" on the Western lands, but there may be something to be used to explain it.
Menelvagor Valar: I think I covered the explanation well enough for it to pass scrutiny
Menelvagor Valar: however, there is something about it that unsettles me
Eonwe Valar: Certainly some Avari would've been found depending on when the messengers were sent.
Menelvagor Valar: where are those scouts?
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps
Eonwe Valar: If they came during the early First Age, they would've come upon nations in a state of war. Their guards would be extra wary.
Eonwe Valar: If they came near the end, they might've likely found orcs
Menelvagor Valar: it was not their task to infiltrate those nations, but to watch them
Menelvagor Valar: which would explain why I used Melkor, and not Morgoth
Menelvagor Valar: because the scouts never came close enough to hear that name
Eonwe Valar: Once the Elf spies start coming out of Angband, any trust for strange Elves is gone.
Menelvagor Valar: true
Menelvagor Valar: but I think my lack of knowledge of certain things would point out to which extent the "spying" was done
Eonwe Valar: There might've already been Silvan Elves in Greenwood
Menelvagor Valar: likely
Menelvagor Valar: but I have that covered
Menelvagor Valar: by the way I was able to move silently and quickly through the trees
Menelvagor Valar: and the "suicide bomber" thing is not something usually done, but I think you know that *wink*
Eonwe Valar: heh
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate
Menelvagor Valar: the name Morgoth was pretty common knowledge in ME
Menelvagor Valar: even at the start of the troubles
Menelvagor Valar: that I would not use Melkor, indicates that I know nothing of the other name, which in turn indicates our scouts never really got close enough to get such information
Eonwe Valar: Among those in Beleriand, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: and it is of course possible that some scouts may have been captured, or killed
Menelvagor Valar: but that could be seen as an anomaly and not worthy of mentioning
Eonwe Valar: hazards of being a scout far from home, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Menelvagor Valar: so, the question that remains is, have I got all the angles, which might raise questions, covered?
Eonwe Valar: Skimming over your part again real quick
Menelvagor Valar: it of course doesnt tell a lot of which I have told you here, but that I can answer in RP when you decide to ask such questions
Eonwe Valar: you say "those that left us long ago." could be taken a bad way by one of "those," but don't know if I'll work that angle or not.
Eonwe Valar: Makes for the possiblity of an interesting interaction between our characters.
Menelvagor Valar: you could take it a bad way...
Menelvagor Valar: but since you were of those people that knew that left for the light, you could also consider that a good way
Menelvagor Valar: and of course, since you have seen the Light of Aman, you would undoubtedly see yourself as superior to me
Menelvagor Valar: especially since I am not of "noble lineage"
Eonwe Valar: my point was it could be taken a bad way, left possibly implying abandonment.
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Eonwe Valar: That would possibly be a touchy subject for Noldor.
Eonwe Valar: even if they were not there or not even born yet.
Eonwe Valar: there of course being when F�anor burned the ships at Losgar.
Menelvagor Valar: well, it wouldn't be a matter easily changed, because to my people, it is simply that way, they left us long ago
Eonwe Valar: your people refused the journey, hence we call you Avari :}
Menelvagor Valar: thus, I have spoken the truth, and what you will make of it in RP is your choice
Eonwe Valar: the unwilling.
Menelvagor Valar: true
Eonwe Valar: I realize that :} Just looking at my options :}
Eonwe Valar: Happened to notice that one.
Menelvagor Valar: but to Avari, it would seem the other way around
Menelvagor Valar: that you were Avari
Eonwe Valar: doesn't mean I'll necessarily use it, just that I noticed it.
Menelvagor Valar: those unwilling to stay in the place of their birth
Menelvagor Valar: of course, of course
Menelvagor Valar: it could indeed to a very interesting relation between you and me
Eonwe Valar: that's an interesting side disucssion right there, Menel
Menelvagor Valar: of course, if you said I was an Avar, I would have no idea what you are talking about, since I never got the knowledge of what that means
Eonwe Valar: The Avari essentially said "no" when the choice was offered of travelling.
Menelvagor Valar: of course
Eonwe Valar: to Aman.
Menelvagor Valar: yet from the Avari's point of view, it could be said that those who went to travel also said "no" to staying
Eonwe Valar: Well, the question wasn't "Will you stay" but "Will you go"
Menelvagor Valar: if I remember correctly, it was the 4 Elf Lords who rallied their people to go
Eonwe Valar: So perhaps the Avari willingly accepted the name of "Unwilling" after a fashion. Not that they themselves would call their people that.
Menelvagor Valar: that would inadvertantly sparked a discussion on what to do
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Eonwe Valar: 3 Elf lords
Menelvagor Valar: in this, it's a simple way of knowing which people said "yes" or "no" from the standpoint of either side
Menelvagor Valar: Olwe, Elwe, Ingwe and Finwe
Eonwe Valar: Olwe didn't go the first trip to Aman
Menelvagor Valar: if I remember correctly
Menelvagor Valar: true
Eonwe Valar: It's just the Teleri were that big they needed to groups.
Menelvagor Valar: but he did rally people to go
Eonwe Valar: *two
Menelvagor Valar: ah yes
Menelvagor Valar: well, in any event, I'll leave it up to you what you will do with what I told you in RP :-)
Eonwe Valar: I think for the most part it holds
Menelvagor Valar: my main concern was that it was well-written and had an overall good coverage on certain things that might be inconsistancies
Eonwe Valar: It does seem you've travelled to alot of lands though.
Eonwe Valar: Kingdoms or villages, that sort of thing.
Menelvagor Valar: not necessarily
Menelvagor Valar: in earlier conversations, I told that it was the first time this far from home
Eonwe Valar: I have come to believe that no aid will come from these lands no matter where I seek
Eonwe Valar: I don't know but I didn't get the impression your character was the typ to say "Well if the first place I go doesn't work, that'll be it."
Menelvagor Valar: a simple matter of deduction
Menelvagor Valar: well, there is also the matter of what I spoke of before
Menelvagor Valar: that I didn't know if my mission would be doomed by going with you, or be fulfilled by it
Menelvagor Valar: I figured that part had been covered
Eonwe Valar: might have to reread that part too.
Menelvagor Valar: also, since you don't know the military state of my homeland, even the Silvan Elves might be a very powerful people
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Menelvagor Valar: also, there are of course the rare reports of those scouts returning home after their missions to give the state of the lands
Eonwe Valar: I was justthinking that if you were only passing through Mirkwood on the way to Beleriand, you're going to recieve a shock when you hit the ocean and find at best a few hundred acres of a Noldorin realm.
Menelvagor Valar: Scouts return to report sometimes, it's what they do *smile*
Menelvagor Valar: and it could be that when the big troubles began, the scouts weren't sent out anymore
Eonwe Valar: So would you say your people's scouts crossed the MIsty Mountains?
Menelvagor Valar: I would say so, yes
Eonwe Valar: Regularly, or just a few who went that far?
Menelvagor Valar: otherwise, we probably wouldn't even know of Melkor's defeat
Menelvagor Valar: just a few
Eonwe Valar: I would say the War of Wrath would've been heard from pretty far away.
Menelvagor Valar: one of the greatest aspects of their missions would be stealth, thus sending in large numbers of scouts would put that in jeopardy
Eonwe Valar: And felt as well, all that digging up the North and all
Menelvagor Valar: true, but an isolated people might not have known
Eonwe Valar: Destroying part of the Beleriand Coastline
Menelvagor Valar: of course, such events surely would not have gone unnoticed, but that is no guarantee to know what those events were
Eonwe Valar: The servants of Morgoth in the East would've been disturbed for a while, and hostilities would've lightened if not disappeared for a while.
Menelvagor Valar: true
Menelvagor Valar: but still, those would be indications and well-educated guesses, not facts
Eonwe Valar: Aye, no gaurantee, but I'd imagine signs would be strong enough that some would guess, even of the tribes of Men.
Eonwe Valar: well, they wouldn't be known facts :}
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps that is something I can change
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth was overthrown after all :}
Menelvagor Valar: making sure that what I say is said with conviction
Eonwe Valar: Another quote if I may: "It is to my belief that the real battle for all our survival will be fought in these lands. "
Eonwe Valar: What brings you to this conclusion again?
Menelvagor Valar: quite simple
Eonwe Valar: Is it simply that all the lands in the West seem to be besieged so far as you've seen?
Menelvagor Valar: through the observations of the scouts, all the great battles and wars have been fought in the west
Eonwe Valar: Mordor is for the most part a central to easterly location.
Eonwe Valar: opening into the East.
Menelvagor Valar: true
Menelvagor Valar: but what is "the East"?
Menelvagor Valar: Tolkien never mentioned to how large the world was, other than the West
Eonwe Valar: the East as far as the west goes is roughyl everythign East of the Numenorean Realms in Exile.
Menelvagor Valar: to the Western people, Mordor is simply the border to the East
Eonwe Valar: Using the Atlas of Middle-Earth you can get a rough idea of the land size.
Menelvagor Valar: but that does not adequately offer any proof as to how far the East goes
Eonwe Valar: Well, I can tell you that in the First Age, Mordor would've been far into the East
Menelvagor Valar: well, to give an alegory (I think) Europe was believed to be the largest part of the world until the middle-ages
Eonwe Valar: by Europeans :}
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Menelvagor Valar: therein lies my point
Eonwe Valar: But Numenoreans sailed as far as the Doors of Morning
Menelvagor Valar: I believe Tolkien somewhere mentioned that from Umbar, the Numenoreans sailed far to the south and east, indicating that the West of ME was but a small portion of the Land
Eonwe Valar: They would've kept extensive charts.
Eonwe Valar: and just as the West of Middl-Earth did, the East would've likely lost some coastland in the bending of the world.
Menelvagor Valar: yes
Menelvagor Valar: however
Menelvagor Valar: it still gives us no indication about the size of "the east"
Menelvagor Valar: that can also be seen by the armies Sauron gathered from Haradwaith and from the lands east of Rhun
Eonwe Valar: Well, Cuivienen was on the lake created by Iluin, which stood in the center North of the land mass.
Menelvagor Valar: they were by far greater than any army the west had ever produced, if by far inferior in combat and equipment
Menelvagor Valar: now that was a thing that I did not know
Menelvagor Valar: but still
Eonwe Valar: They were greater in number compared to what the West produced at WotR. I'm sure the Wards of Beleriand produced an army larger on the side of the Noldor.
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps
Menelvagor Valar: but without any real proof as to how large the world really is, there is no way of telling
Eonwe Valar: Iluin and Ormal were placed on Ice pillars made by Melkor (a treacherous act since he lied saying they were imperishable crystal)
Eonwe Valar: The pillars melted and formed a lake (maybe two, one sec and I'll check)
Menelvagor Valar: the point being is that we have to rely on vague descriptions at best, to understand the full extent of the world
Eonwe Valar: Do you have Atlas of Middle-Earth or access to any maps of ME during the dirrent Ages?
Eonwe Valar: *different
Menelvagor Valar: no
Eonwe Valar: I've found using the Mountains ranges can give a decent approximation.
Eonwe Valar: for Example, the mountains that are now on the ocean in the Third Age held Belegost as I recall.
Eonwe Valar: Might be slightly off.
Menelvagor Valar: if you have a map, perhaps you can scan it and send it to me per email
Eonwe Valar: sorry, can't scan it :{
Menelvagor Valar: no scanner?
Eonwe Valar: not accessible to me right now, and it wouldn't come out very well as it spans two pages.
Menelvagor Valar: Belegost was part of the Blue Mountains as I recall
Eonwe Valar: and the parts I'm focusing on are very near the crease.
Eonwe Valar: yes
Menelvagor Valar: it could have been lost to the sea when the coast broke off to the north
Eonwe Valar: At the end of the First Age, the BLue Mountains were on the Coastline.
Eonwe Valar: The Orocarni are the Furthest Mountain range in the East, coming within probably a few hundred or so miles of the east coast at its narrowest point.
Eonwe Valar: So using that mountain range we can make guestimations on the size of "the East"
Menelvagor Valar: could you tell me where the Bay of Balar is to where the current coastline is?
Eonwe Valar: If you can, you can look at the map in the back of your Sil and see that the Blue Mountains were the edge of Beleriand and at that time everything else was "East of the Mountains"
Menelvagor Valar: I'm afraid the map of Beleriand that I have cuts off at the Blue Mountains
Eonwe Valar: Bay of Balar? one sec
Eonwe Valar: exactly
Eonwe Valar: Beyond that was "the East"
Eonwe Valar: in the First Age
Eonwe Valar: Beleriand was drowned out, so between the Ered Luin and the Misty Mountains became roughyl "The West"
Menelvagor Valar: my most educated guess would be that Lake Helevorn was extended and became the Ice Bay of Forochel
Eonwe Valar: Durin's Halls were told of in Stories in the First Age as I recall.
Menelvagor Valar: and that were Nogrod was the bay between Forlindon and Harlindon was formed
Menelvagor Valar: which would place the Bay of Balar approximately at the coastline west of Gondor
Eonwe Valar: The Bay of Balar is way out there
Eonwe Valar: Comparing just to the beginnign of the Second Age map.
Eonwe Valar: As far as I can surmise, roughly due east of Belegost
Menelvagor Valar: so Belegost was south of Nogrod?
Eonwe Valar: no, but the water juts in roughly where Nogrod would be.
Menelvagor Valar: between Forlindon and Harlindon, right?
Eonwe Valar: South of that
Eonwe Valar: Belegost is in the mountains in Southern Harlindon
Eonwe Valar: almost due east of Hadhodrond (Moria)
Eonwe Valar: er, due west
Eonwe Valar: Almsot due south of the Grey Havens
Menelvagor Valar: ok :-)
Eonwe Valar: LotR also has a 3rd Age map to look at, btw
Eonwe Valar: not that you didn't know :}
Menelvagor Valar: well, to me, it still gives no conclusive evidence as to how large the world is
Eonwe Valar: but that way you can try to compare the SIl First Age map and the Third Age map.
Menelvagor Valar: I'm comparing the LotR map with the Beleriand one, so I know what's where
Menelvagor Valar: got them both on my site
Menelvagor Valar: as a quick change of subject....
Menelvagor Valar: if we were ever to have a Valar Guild convention on which most of us could make it, we would solve so many mysteries in Tolkien
Menelvagor Valar: some things are explained so much easier IRL
Eonwe Valar: aye :}
Menelvagor Valar: on map for example, you can point out the place you mean, without the other person having to look for the point you are referring to
Menelvagor Valar: saves a lot of time as well
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, I'll take what you have said into consideration
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, with this THird Age map, Rhun is a bit northerly of Mordor
Menelvagor Valar: north of its eastern confines, yes
Menelvagor Valar: straight north of the outcrops of the ash mountains on the east side
Eonwe Valar: But yeah, I'm not expecting actual numbers when I look for the size, but you can compare and estimate based on the largest region,s like mountains and rivers
Menelvagor Valar: true
Menelvagor Valar: but is the world of M-E roughly the size as the Earth?
Eonwe Valar: I would say it is. This is meant to be a mythology for England.
Eonwe Valar: and if this map is right, the Orocarni are roughly 800 miles from the Sea of Rhun :}
Eonwe Valar: give or take a knuckle :}
Menelvagor Valar: then it would seem to me that the West is roughly the size of europe and Asia is the east
Menelvagor Valar: and 800 miles in this world is nothing
Eonwe Valar: aye, my map here does share a resemblance to that area.
Eonwe Valar: you're not accounting for lots of time for continental drift and active volcanoes :}
Menelvagor Valar: so, if Cuivienen is in the center of the world, which would mean roughly at the lattitude where Iraq is, that is still at the least the entire width of europe to get there
Eonwe Valar: Wow, the Havens at Umbar are further south than I thought.
Eonwe Valar: give or take a few hundred miles, aye
Menelvagor Valar: and thus you learn things you didn't know through things you wanted to know but hadn't expected to learn
Eonwe Valar: it was a long journey to get all the Elves to the shore, apparently taking years
Eonwe Valar: or at least there's the implication
Menelvagor Valar: and that would mean that I am correct in my assumptions
Eonwe Valar: ah! I got it!
Menelvagor Valar: uh-oh!
Menelvagor Valar: something tells me I want to log out right now and not hear this *wink*
Eonwe Valar: not quite the map I remember, but ok
Eonwe Valar: ok, 2 inland seas
Menelvagor Valar: but wait, there is an atlas of ME, meaning a book with nothing but maps?
Eonwe Valar: Helcar in the north, Ringol in the South
Eonwe Valar: some words, but mostly maps, aye
Eonwe Valar: that's what I'm using
Menelvagor Valar: I got to have that one!
Eonwe Valar: Karen Wynn FOnstad is the author you'll want to look for.
Menelvagor Valar: Helcar is where the Helcar�xxe is
Menelvagor Valar: which means far to the west and North I presume
Eonwe Valar: Get the Revised Edition (has a brown bordered cover with a map in the middle on the front)
Menelvagor Valar: if I can even find it over here that is
Eonwe Valar: well, no apparently
Eonwe Valar: Helcar is the inland sea . Now on the far east bank is where the Elves awoke
Eonwe Valar: and this bank is not far from the Orocarni
Menelvagor Valar: and they called Helcar Cuivienen?
Eonwe Valar: within a few hundred miles I'd say.
Menelvagor Valar: and what is the Orocarni?
Eonwe Valar: no, the place where they awoke was Cuivienen
Eonwe Valar: the Orocarni is the Easternmost Mountain Range.
Menelvagor Valar: k
Menelvagor Valar: so, Cuivienen is a lake not far from the eastern banks of Helcar?
Eonwe Valar: it's more like a bay
Eonwe Valar: along the shore of Helcar
Menelvagor Valar: like the Red Sea?
Menelvagor Valar: but smaller?
Menelvagor Valar: enclosed on all sides, but a small gap that leads to Helcar?
Eonwe Valar: this book is amazing, not to make you too jealous :} she even does the work of ckecking TOlkien's map to make guesses at mileage :}
Eonwe Valar: one sec, I'm reading to get a better description
Menelvagor Valar: I'm already too jealous for words to describe
Menelvagor Valar: so worse than that it won't get
Eonwe Valar: "Cuivienen was an eastern bay of the inland sea of Helcar"
Menelvagor Valar: I think Phar would find this very interesting as well *smile*
Eonwe Valar: so, sort of yes, it's only open to Helcar from one side
Menelvagor Valar: unfortunately, I have a problem with putting things into context if I can't see it
Eonwe Valar: the WIld Woods surround it, and streams ran from the Orocarni nearby
Menelvagor Valar: but I think I may have an accurate enough mental picture of it
Eonwe Valar: I think the Sea of Rhun is the remnant of the Sea of Helcar
Eonwe Valar: the northern portion of the latter seems to have the same rivers feeding it as the former
Menelvagor Valar: so Cuivienen would be a couple hundred miles to the east?
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, I think I need some time to process all this new info
Eonwe Valar: Well, the Ambarkanta map (one of TOlkien's maps) seems to estimate the total journey at about 2000 miles from Cuivienen to the seashore
Menelvagor Valar: a long journey indeed
Eonwe Valar: *in excess of, to quote more correctly
Menelvagor Valar: I'm gonna call it a day, as far as amassing new info goes
Eonwe Valar: and there were Elves who stopped or got lost along the way as well.
Menelvagor Valar: going afk now to read a little on my own and save the transcripts later
Eonwe Valar: ok :}
Eonwe Valar: Hope you enjoyed the brain cramming session :}
Menelvagor Valar: it has been most interesting and most informative
Menelvagor Valar: for both the Cuivienen part as well as the importance discussion
Eonwe Valar: For me as well. I like the chance to pull these books out and use them :}
Menelvagor Valar: all the more reason to one day organise a Valar Guild convention
Eonwe Valar: it would be interesting
Menelvagor Valar: if only it was with our greatest loremasters
Eonwe Valar: but there's alot that goes with that :}
Menelvagor Valar: I know
Menelvagor Valar: I'm trying to organize a simple game-day and I haven't gotten very far yet
Menelvagor Valar: I've got more luck organizing events in WoW, and even that has its problems
Eonwe Valar: I think we'd all have to have electronic version of all of TOlkien's books so we didn't have to lug our collections around though :}
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I know what it's like Menel.
Menelvagor Valar: well, if such a convention would ever get off the ground, we could get some people to bring their collection, so that we will have enough to go by
Menelvagor Valar: depending on how many people would come, a fixed number of copies
Eonwe Valar: aye
Menelvagor Valar: and, if we had more luck than the world could amass, by that time we will have discovered technology to bring back people from the dead, if only temporary ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I think if that happened, we'd be low on Tolkien's priorites :}
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate, I would have a gut instinct that Tolkien would simply refuse to answer the tons of questions we'd have
Eonwe Valar: He'd be too busy spending time with his great+- grandchildren
Menelvagor Valar: that too
Menelvagor Valar: could also be that in the Long Sleep he has forgotten a lot that concerned him while he was alive
Eonwe Valar: Then why disturb his sleep?
Menelvagor Valar: aye, let us our illusions :-P
Eonwe Valar: heh
Eonwe Valar: Well, I'll leave you to absorption :} I'm going to get some WoW time in :}
Menelvagor Valar: good luck
Menelvagor Valar (21:46:34): what lvl are you btw?
Eonwe Valar (21:46:40): 48 on my Paladin
Menelvagor Valar (21:46:44): nice
Menelvagor Valar (21:46:48): what talent tree?
Eonwe Valar (21:46:52): Retribution
Menelvagor Valar (21:46:59): cool
Menelvagor Valar (21:47:01): me too :-)
Eonwe Valar (21:47:06): I'm a warrior, not a priest in plate :}
Eonwe Valar (21:47:16): and a Holy Warrior at that :}
Menelvagor Valar (21:47:18): although I dumped 5 points into healing
Menelvagor Valar (21:47:33): it is nice to be able to heal a little better
Eonwe Valar (21:47:44): IO've got points into protection and Healing, aye
Eonwe Valar (21:47:56): But my main tree was Retribution.
Menelvagor Valar (21:48:10): btw, you know what a godly combination of 2 different classes is?
Eonwe Valar (21:48:19): Shaman? :}
Menelvagor Valar (21:48:23): alliance
Eonwe Valar (21:48:29): Druid?
Menelvagor Valar (21:48:42): 2 different classes combined in PvE
Eonwe Valar (21:48:49): oh, gotcha :}
Eonwe Valar (21:49:02): Paladin and Hunter?
Menelvagor Valar (21:49:10): would be nice, but no
Eonwe Valar (21:49:20): Druid and Mage?
Menelvagor Valar (21:49:43): a fire mage against non-fire-immunes is by itself godly
Menelvagor Valar (21:50:04): I know, because I have a 56 fire / arcane mage :-)
Eonwe Valar (21:50:09): hehe
Menelvagor Valar (21:50:15): but Paladin and Priest
Eonwe Valar (21:50:17): I tend to go by what I like rather than what's godly :}
Menelvagor Valar (21:50:25): of course :-)
Menelvagor Valar (21:50:28): and I like my mage
Menelvagor Valar (21:50:45): the priest heals the paladin while he whacks
Eonwe Valar (21:50:47): I suppose those two would be tough. The Priest having ranged and healing covered and the Paladin tanking everything
Menelvagor Valar (21:51:02): and when the heals amass aggro, then the pala heals and gets aggro for that
Eonwe Valar (21:51:20): yeah, I noticed my heals seem to pick up more aggro now.
Menelvagor Valar (21:51:30): I've tried it with a friend
Menelvagor Valar (21:51:39): we started as 2 human priest and pala
Menelvagor Valar (21:51:49): and we decided that we'd only kill oranges
Menelvagor Valar (21:52:12): we could take 2 oranges by ourselves, though it would take us like 3 minutes to whack only 1 opponent
Eonwe Valar (21:52:23): aye
Menelvagor Valar (21:52:54): so, when we got to lvl 4 or so, we decided that although grabbing yellows would not be as satisfying or exciting, it would be faster
Menelvagor Valar (21:53:33): and we haven't died yet using that simple formula
Menelvagor Valar (21:53:39): the one that isn't attacked heals
Eonwe Valar (21:53:47): You going to try two-mannign instances like that?
Menelvagor Valar (21:53:59): of course, until I grabbed 2 lvl 9 spiders and a lvl 11 elite spider at lvl 7
Menelvagor Valar (21:54:18): nah
Menelvagor Valar (21:54:27): the ends of instances would be too difficult
Eonwe Valar (21:55:10): afk for a sec
Menelvagor Valar (21:55:10): but 2 elites of the same or little high level at the same time pose no problem
Menelvagor Valar (21:55:34): with a 2nd priest, my pala would take 3-4 elites
Menelvagor Valar (21:55:51): if just by grabbing aggro with the appropriate seal
Menelvagor Valar (21:56:10): grab aggro and switch to damage seal
Menelvagor Valar (21:57:42): if you ever want to do low to mid lvl instances in record time though, ask a couple high lvl mages
Menelvagor Valar (21:58:02): Deadmines will be finished in about 20 mins with just 1 high lvl mage
Menelvagor Valar (21:58:13): afk for a while now, reading, have fun in WoW
Eonwe Valar (22:01:02): back
Eonwe Valar (22:01:07): thanks, have fun reading :}
(23:02:54) bnetValar has left the room.
(23:11:51) GwaihirValar has left the room.