Valar Guild

July 31, 2005 Meeting

5pm ESDT (GMT -5)

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
IRC:, join channel #valarguild. Public Chat Valar
Sigma Chat: click on  Type in your guild name as the user name.
Say a greeting when you enter on any of these platforms so we'll know you're there!
Bridging program by Farmer Maggot-(V)
All Bridges started, although a bit late. Thanks Farmer!
Back to News
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon-(V), Eonwe-(Valar), Varda-(Valar)

Attending: (11)
    Members: ArPharazonV, AuSteinM-(TV)/AuSteinM, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Finarfin-(V)/FINARFIN010, GilraenV, FarmerMaggot-(V), Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V, Ulmo-(Valar)/HeruRasa, VardaValar1
    Visitor from WoW Europe: Lalaith/hithershore (interested in joining)

Meeting Begins
    Tolkien Encyc: new items in:
       Request to anyone reading these or looking at the art
       Screenshots re-organized, new shots
       New map
       Another group took over our dropped Clan Vala name
       We have members playing but not using their guild names or Valar channel, so we miss seeing each other.
    Guild Wars
    Diablo 2:LoD:
       New patch
    Lord of the Rings Online fka MeO
       New music download
    Eonwe's topic: What elf blood if any was in the Numenoreans?
    Finarfin's topic: What is the difference between the heroism between Aragorn, Frodo, and Samwise and which was harder?
    Robert Jordan
    More WoW

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: hello to anyone on the other side of the bridge!
ArPharazonV: I know you're watching, whoever you are!
bnetValar: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): well, nobody here
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
GilraenV has entered the room.
bnetValar: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): *welcome*
TheSirG3 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya all
Eonwe Valar: heya
TheSirG3: hadn't realized today was Sunday =P
Eonwe Valar: howdy
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: I thought: why is nobody inviting me? turns out I was the first one in the room!
ArPharazonV: almost one this one tonight
AuSteinM has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: but we died before I could pick it up, and the guy disappeared when we came back
HeruRasa has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: *won this one
Eonwe Valar: I had that happen to me this week too, Phar
HeruRasa: heyas
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: I kill a unique boss, something I might be interested in drop, I get killed, and the body's gone when I get back.
ArPharazonV: well, I was interested in this one.. and the others passed on it...
ArPharazonV: it would have been mine... miiine!
Eonwe Valar: However I did pick up a nice 52 dps sword in the Eastern Plaquelands yestereday.
ArPharazonV: nice
Eonwe Valar: Beat the next two weapons I was going to make myself :}
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: I won a boss' hammer in Uldaman this week
VardaValar1: A few problems connecting, sorry
Eonwe Valar: Nice staff, and I'm pretty sure I know the guy it drops from. He's surrounded by graves, right?
ArPharazonV: right, he is
ArPharazonV: that's the hammer I won...
ArPharazonV: ooh, and I got to lvl 49 tonight
VardaValar1: Congrats
ArPharazonV: Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: but we were killed by his zombie-guardians, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: and when we came back, nothing left of him but his skeleton :-(
Eonwe Valar: Yep, that's the guy
ArPharazonV: so gone was my staff
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's go ahead and begin the meeting.
ArPharazonV: we should have gotten a fifth party-member.. we lacked a primary healer
ArPharazonV: but yeah, go ahead

Eonwe Valar: Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya Menel!
Eonwe Valar: Member news:
Menelvagor Valar: ack, totally forgot
Eonwe Valar: in the hustle and bustle of playing games, don't forget we have Sunday meetings :}
Menelvagor Valar: sorry...
Eonwe Valar: Any member news?
VardaValar1: Fangorn says hi
VardaValar1: He's by me at the next chair, in WoW
Eonwe Valar: Hey Fangorn :}
Eonwe Valar: School/university classes are starting back up this month for some. It means less gaming time for those of us involved.
Eonwe Valar: Enjoy the time you have left of the summer.
Eonwe Valar: By "this month" I of course mean August.

Eonwe Valar: Web News:
VardaValar1: Bilbo now works, same as Sauron, but still trying to come on
Eonwe Valar: Varda, you have web news?
VardaValar1: Aye
Eonwe Valar: Your floor :}
VardaValar1: *waxes*
VardaValar1: Pardon
VardaValar1: Index page re-done, still has the same info
VardaValar1: I would like to set the quick menu to one side, haven't gotten it to look good
VardaValar1: The News page now has rotating quotes again, new progamming. Old one nerfed
VardaValar1: Lots in the Tolkien Encyclopedia, that is new
VardaValar1: Story page:
VardaValar1: Friend in Need by Elwing-(V)
VardaValar1: Poetry page:
VardaValar1: Night Prayer for Elves, or Lullaby by Elatan-(Valar)
VardaValar1: The Time of Legolas by Varda-(Valar)
Orodreth V has entered the room.
VardaValar1: The art page is now operating, many caves up
VardaValar1: Aiya Oro : )
Orodreth V: Aiya
VardaValar1: Today, Arathorn's Cave went up
VardaValar1: For those who think they can't draw well enough for the Art pages, please check his funnies out : )
VardaValar1: Speaking of Arathorn
VardaValar1: He has been working hard on the WoW Screenshots page
VardaValar1: It is now organized by subject, nice background, with new sections
VardaValar1: Be sure to change your WoW screenshots to jpg and email them to him, if you don't have a place to put them.
VardaValar1: If you do, send him the URL
VardaValar1: My report is finished, thank you
Eonwe Valar: Thanks for the report :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Web News?
VardaValar1: (Arathorn is not online in WoW)
VardaValar1: Oh, one other thing
VardaValar1: If any of you read any of those poems, stories, or look at the art
VardaValar1: it would be nice if you liked it to drop the person an email saying you liked it
VardaValar1: If you would like to make a public comment, I can add it to the person's section
VardaValar1: Email the comment to me, perhaps as a cc, and give permission please
Menelvagor Valar: will try to remember that
Orodreth V: Yes..I've only gotten one e-mail, and that was from someone not even in ghe guild. :'(
VardaValar1: Non-guild email is very nice, as it lets us know outside folk do read it
VardaValar1: We have a lot of readers and lurkers. Let us know you are there : )
ArPharazonV: yes, you! we know you're out there! show yourselves!
VardaValar1: I usually only hear if someone wants permission to use an item on their site
VardaValar1: Tell 'em, Phar ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Breaking the fourth wall, hehe
Menelvagor Valar: what happened to the first 3? :-)
Orodreth V: they're already there
Orodreth V: and breaking them costs money :-P
VardaValar1: Writers and artists looking at each other's stuff know the other guy wants to hear a comment, if only that you looked at it : )
ArPharazonV: and the doors in them are open, so no need to break anything
Eonwe Valar: It's sor tof a tv term. when you "break the fourth wall" you're talking to the audience
Menelvagor Valar: ah, thanks for the clarification
ArPharazonV: indeed, but it comes from stage-play, actually
GilraenV: I'm off, folks. Namarie.
Eonwe Valar: ok, stage play then. the concept is the same :}
VardaValar1: Bye Gilraen!
Menelvagor Valar: namarie
GilraenV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: with the 'fourth wall' being the side of the stage with the open curtains, where the audience is watching from :-)
Orodreth V: have the back and two side walls, and the "fourth" wall is an imagined thing between the actors and the audience
Orodreth V: er
Orodreth V: Got beat to it
ArPharazonV: :-)
Menelvagor Valar: what happened to the first 3 walls in open-air theatre? :-D
VardaValar1: Asides and Chorus to the audience
ArPharazonV: it's now mostly used on tv, indeed, or in comics...
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, on with the meeting.
Menelvagor Valar: tv's actually have 5 "walls", if you're taking into account they are roughly cubical

Eonwe Valar: Gaming News:
Menelvagor Valar: sorry :-)
ArPharazonV: wouldn't that be 6 then?
ArPharazonV: :-X
Eonwe Valar: We have 5 lvl 60s in WOW now, last count (yesterday) [WoW USA]
Eonwe Valar: We have at least 3 standing on the doorstep.
Eonwe Valar: that meaning they're 57-59
Eonwe Valar: Thought I'd share that tidbit of WoW news :}
VardaValar1: So US can plan on some high level Friday runs?
Menelvagor Valar: I suspect those would be... non-raid high level runs?
Eonwe Valar: I think two of the 60s belong to Arathorn, so that might be a tough one.
HeruRasa: if more than 2 or 3 of us ever log on for Friday
VardaValar1: Would like to get some questing done during them, can't in a raid
Menelvagor Valar: some raids can quest
Menelvagor Valar: but most commonly not
Menelvagor Valar: most raids are for item runs
VardaValar1: True
Menelvagor Valar: and well... with usually at least 5-10 60's online in the guild on europe, it's hard not to think of "high level runs" as non-raid :-)
HeruRasa: once you hit 60 high end group and raid instances are the only real challengesd left, and certainly the fun as I see it
ArPharazonV: er.... anyone ever heard of an AIM-user called Evnot911?
Menelvagor Valar: indeed Ulmo :-)
VardaValar1: Ask him if he has a guild name, Phar?
Eonwe Valar: Is there a report from the European WoW guys?
ArPharazonV: he's not that friendly in comments...
Menelvagor Valar: sure :-)
ArPharazonV: I'd best not connect him with the guild
Menelvagor Valar: 80 accounts, 120 players at the moment
Menelvagor Valar: we're rapidly becoming one of the biggest guilds on the server
VardaValar1: But only about 4 Valar
Menelvagor Valar: still, yes
Menelvagor Valar: but there are some prospects, still have to find the time to really talk with them though :-)
ArPharazonV: we have at least one prospect, but she hasn't been online for some time as far as I know...
ArPharazonV: have you heard from Lalaith, Menel?
Menelvagor Valar: currently we have 33 60's, 4 in the "kill-zone"
Menelvagor Valar: she was online today or yesterday, can't exactly remember
Menelvagor Valar: to be precise, she's online at this very moment :-)
ArPharazonV: ah, ok... well, at least that says she lengthened her account...
Menelvagor Valar: and currently, we are making preparations for high-end content, otherwise known as Onyxia, Molten Core and Blackwing Lair
ArPharazonV: give my greetings :-)
Menelvagor Valar: and that basically covers the europe report
ArPharazonV: what's the "kill-zone", Menel?
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Menelvagor.
Menelvagor Valar: 57-59 -> nearing 60
ArPharazonV: oh, allright
Eonwe Valar: Varda, you have a report?
Menelvagor Valar: and now, if you would excuse me, time to sound out that prospect of ours :-)
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: or rather, gaming news?
VardaValar1: Yes
VardaValar1: Anyone besides me remember Rog-(V)? :-)
VardaValar1: He's Mahtan's nephew, went into military service
VardaValar1: came back, and now finally has computer access
VardaValar1: He asks if we have anything going on in Guild Wars
ArPharazonV: ah, the problem of Rog...
VardaValar1: He can't do pay per play
ArPharazonV: oh, wait, that was Ros
VardaValar1: I know we have some folk in Guild Wars
VardaValar1: Please remember to use your guild name, tell Eonwe you use the game
VardaValar1: and try to get together, maybe with the Forum or meetings
VardaValar1: It would help to post times you might play Guild Wars
VardaValar1: Anyone here play it?
Orodreth V: Guild Wars is a definite possiblity for me in the near future
bnetValar: Varda-(Valar) (Bnet): Testing Bnet bridge connection
bnetValar: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): testing
bnetValar: Menelvagor-(Valar) (SigmaChat): works all right it seems
VardaValar1: Thanks Farmer! Nice job fixing the Bridge : )
VardaValar1: But no one here is actually playing Guild Wars now?
ArPharazonV: was thinking about it, but haven't decided on it yet
VardaValar1: Readers, please email Eonwe for the Games page if you play Guild Wars
HeruRasa: I only ever heard one reference to it at all
VardaValar1: I've heard a few people say they have it
Menelvagor Valar: she's coming :-)
ArPharazonV: I participated in both pre-launch world-events, very nice game, but haven't gotten it yet
Orodreth V: I've got a couple real old friends that play it, which is one of the main reasons I'm considering getting it.
VardaValar1: Rog is wanting to re-join, especially if he can find gaming buddies
Menelvagor Valar: a personal friend of mine just got over to WoW because Guild Wars wasn't challenging for him anymore
VardaValar1: I'm done
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda
Orodreth V: That's interesting becasue I've seen and heard about people trading WoW accounts for Guild Wars ones.
Eonwe Valar: While we're asking, does anyone here still play WC3?
VardaValar1: Already? WoW hasn't been out long
HeruRasa: if that is true then just as many go the other way :-)
bnetValar: Menelvagor-(Valar) (SigmaChat): well, he had 3 lvl 20 chars, all tweaked to the limits
VardaValar1: I've heard a few do but can't locate each other, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: very very very seldom, Eonwe
bnetValar: Menelvagor-(Valar) (SigmaChat): you' d be rather bored if you had 10 60's and some horde 60's as well :-)
HeruRasa: no game has come close to the depth of EQ yet
VardaValar1: Maybe we will have some interest if Lord of the Rings Online ever comes out, then
Orodreth V: I do, fairly constantly, but mostly on my alt account, becasue from what I hear, no one plays anymore. I'm more then willing to switch back to my guld account if people picked it up again.
Eonwe Valar: It seems direct e-mails to set up gaming times would be the best situation for those looking for games.
VardaValar1: Ulmo, did you try DAoC?
HeruRasa: no
VardaValar1: Eonwe, how about the Forum?
bnetValar: Menelvagor-(Valar) (SigmaChat): personally, I would say WoW by far outruns DaoC
HeruRasa: took me 4 years of active play to do just about all in EQ
Eonwe Valar: I think WoW shares a bit more with LotRO in that both have a preestablished Lore to stick to.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, the Forum is also a good way.
VardaValar1: Ulmo, are you planning on returning to EQ?
HeruRasa: no
Orodreth V: There's a reason that there are so many derogitory plays on the name Everquest..
VardaValar1: I enjoyed EQ, but can't run two MMORPG's
Eonwe Valar: In further WC3 news, there's a new WC3 map out
HeruRasa: EQ virtually requires belonging to an active guild once you get on in levels
Eonwe Valar: or rather, a blizzard-adapted map
Eonwe Valar: Skibi's Castle TD
Orodreth V: Which is much <3
Eonwe Valar: We had enough for an EQ guild at one point, Ulmo.
VardaValar1: WoW is going to need some guild work too for upper levels
Eonwe Valar: to start one at least.
HeruRasa: I never saw more than 4 on Zeb
ArPharazonV: oh, and there's a new Diablo patch coming, it seems
ArPharazonV: Diablo 2, probably
Eonwe Valar: THat was the problem. They were all scattered
VardaValar1: Same problem we have on WoW
Eonwe Valar: Phar beat me to the Announcement, hehe
VardaValar1: Thirty players, but scattered
Eonwe Valar: Yes, there's going to be Patch 1.11 for Diablo 2
ArPharazonV: apparently Blizzard has not abandoned the game yet :-)
Eonwe Valar: Whether or not V&K will be adapting the ME mod to it is unknown as of yet.
VardaValar1: V&K jumped into WoW Europe, so it is iffy
Eonwe Valar: So why aren't they playing with our Valar GUild guys in Europe then? :}
VardaValar1: We don't really have a guild branch in Europe
Eonwe Valar: Aye, we don't.
VardaValar1: They don't know about them, and I haven't told them
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, I probably will be sticking with whatever version of LoD sticks with the ME mod.
VardaValar1: I'll make a 14th account if needed to use it : )
Eonwe Valar: In LotRO news, this week's new tidbit was a selection from the game's music.
Eonwe Valar: the Prancing Pony.
Eonwe Valar: You can get it directly from their site.
Eonwe Valar:
Eonwe Valar: Any further Gaming News?
Eonwe Valar: Send me Tolkien topics as well.
Eonwe Valar: Or I'll make you do research :}
bnetValar: Menelvagor-(Valar) (SigmaChat): Lalaith is having trouble loading the page, java won't download on her comp, I'm currently trying to find other ways
VardaValar1: I can't get into the SigmaChat either, just crash from the News page
bnetValar: Menelvagor-(Valar) (SigmaChat): bummer

Eonwe Valar: OK, we're now Going into Tolkien Chat:
Eonwe Valar: And today's topci is provided by yours truly :}
Eonwe Valar: I warned you I'd give you research, and now here we go :}
Eonwe Valar: I've read a few threads on the subject of Numenoreans on a few Tolkien related sites.
VardaValar1: Any on ours? : )
Eonwe Valar: It seems many I've read are under the impression the entire people had Elven blood in their lineage.
ArPharazonV: not true, just Elros and his descendants
ArPharazonV: anything else? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: What can we cite to prove this?
ArPharazonV: brb
HeruRasa: I never heard most or all do, but I can't help but think more did
VardaValar1: That only a few elf/human marriages were made, and are listed
Eonwe Valar: Give pieces from the Sil, from LotR, or from the Histories
Eonwe Valar: What quotes do we have to support that, Varda?
ArPharazonV: ah, here's one such quote
ArPharazonV: Appendix A
ArPharazonV: "There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn."
ArPharazonV: now we know that the last was long after Numenor
ArPharazonV: and we have the names of the descendants of the first 2 unions
VardaValar1: Hey, what about the handmaid of Nimrodel?
ArPharazonV: right, apparently that myth's not true ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Legolas seems to be fooled then
ArPharazonV: but even so, that was in the Third Age, according to UT
VardaValar1: Legolas could tell some elven blood in Imrahil
VardaValar1: True, Phar
ArPharazonV: when Numenor was already gone
VardaValar1: Good point
ArPharazonV: Mithrellas was her name, right?
Eonwe Valar: correct
VardaValar1: Sounds right
Eonwe Valar: so what else do we have on the subject of Numenorean lineage?
ArPharazonV: we know Elros had elven-blood
ArPharazonV: and we know the remainder descended from the Edain
Eonwe Valar: Aye, so only those directly descended from him would have Elven blood.
ArPharazonV: yes
ArPharazonV: like me!
ArPharazonV: well, directly descended...
ArPharazonV: just descended works too
VardaValar1: For research purposes, Numenoreans are also listed as Dunedain
Eonwe Valar: well I say directly to signify that a cousin-in-law doesn't count.
ArPharazonV: a cousin-in-law is not a descendant in any way...
ArPharazonV: may be a successor, but not a descendant
ArPharazonV: but I get the point
Eonwe Valar: ok, as long as you get what I was trying to say :}
Eonwe Valar: Anything that can be used to support the opposite claim?
ArPharazonV: hmm.... I once read about a version of a story wherein one of the other Edain had an Elven female... but not sure where I read it
Eonwe Valar: Are there any quotes that would side with those saying all Numenoreans had Elven blood?
ArPharazonV: probably something in UT...
Eonwe Valar: Only other potential pair I read was Turin and Finduilas, but we know that didn't work out.
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: no, I read that one human had an Elven mother
ArPharazonV: could be the house of Haleth, or somewhere in that area
Eonwe Valar: You'll have to find a quote on that later.
Orodreth V: don't have books handy, but unless I'm mistaken does it not state someplace that the Numorieans wereeither all three Houses or one of them?
Eonwe Valar: Don't sit back on the sidelines, guys :} pull out LotR and get crackin'! :}
ArPharazonV: will find UT now, but have no idea where in the book to look...
VardaValar1: The idea of elf blood may have come because the Numenoreans were so long-lived and educated
Orodreth V: if so, that proves that they didn't all
Orodreth V: simply by the fact that the Houses didn't all
VardaValar1: Silmarillion, "Akallabeth": To the Fathers of Men of the three faithful houses rich reward also was given.
Eonwe Valar: The Numenoreans were those from the Three Houses of the Edain, aye
VardaValar1: Eonwe came among them and taught them;
Eonwe Valar: that's a good point, Varda. What do we have on their extended life?
VardaValar1: and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed.
VardaValar1: A land was made for the Edain to dwell in, neither part of Middle-earth nor of Valinor..."
VardaValar1: End quote for now
Orodreth V: So, no one will claim the Houses were (all) of Elven blood, therefore neither were the Numenoreans. With enough time, they would probally all hav some faint trace.
Orodreth V: But not and the begnning and it would not be strong at the end.
Orodreth V: at*
Orodreth V: Can someon break that?
VardaValar1: I was quoting
Orodreth V: someone*
Orodreth V: Blah
VardaValar1: The long life did not come from elf blood, but from a gift
Eonwe Valar: Based on the reaction of Thingol to Beren, I think it safe that the prideful Noldor wouldn't take lightly of a union between their own and mortals either.
hithershore has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya! :-)
hithershore: Hello all
VardaValar1: Greetings, hithershore
Menelvagor Valar: Hithershore = Lalaith from Europe
Eonwe Valar: greetings
VardaValar1: We were just discussing how much if any elf blood was in the Numenoreans : )
ArPharazonV: hey!
Eonwe Valar: We're discussing Numenorean descent, evidence for or against the idea some have that there is Elven blood in their entire peoples.
Eonwe Valar: Varda summed it up better :}
hithershore: I see
Orodreth V: I would say we have to assume that after some hundreds of years everyone would have some faint trace.
VardaValar1: Your summary sounds good to me too, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: sorry, Eonwe, can't find the quote I told you about... but I shall continue looking
VardaValar1: Oro, if only three unions were made, and we know their descendents, I don't see where you get that
Orodreth V: Ah, but we don't.
Eonwe Valar: We do
Orodreth V: Once we get to the Numenoreans, only the royai decendants are mentioned.explicitly.
VardaValar1: We have some handy-dandy geneologies
ArPharazonV: well, we know that those with elven blood must be descended from Elros...
ArPharazonV: but we do not have all the descendants from Elros
Orodreth V: You can't tell me that the however many generations of Numenoreans only ended up producing Ar-Pharazon.
Eonwe Valar: We would still only get the bloodline contained in a small portion of the population.
VardaValar1: Elros' descendants had to be of royal blood by definition, as he was the first king of Numenor
Eonwe Valar: The Lords of Andune, for example
ArPharazonV: indeed, Eonwe.... but we only have a small part of those
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
Orodreth V: He must have had a line of aunts, uncles, and cousins a mile long.
ArPharazonV: who knows how many descendants there were in that line, that mingled with the rest of the population
Orodreth V: Exactly.
ArPharazonV: could be hundreds, thousands even.... if it multiplied exponentially
VardaValar1: Why must he have had so many unknowns mingling with the main population?
ArPharazonV: we have 25 generations or so
VardaValar1: Numenor didn't last all that long
Eonwe Valar: Well, actually, Elves live a long long time and the most kids the ever had at one was 7 (F�anor). Two or 3 is mor e natural
Orodreth V: Once your older brother produces a heir, you're free to get mairred with whoever you please.
ArPharazonV: 3000 years is a long time
VardaValar1: Elves weren't that keen on mingling
Orodreth V: But these are Humans.
Orodreth V: Even with Elven blood.
Orodreth V: and even with their longer lifespans
VardaValar1: How dilute does it have to be to be called Human blood?
ArPharazonV: Pharazon was the 25th king, thus we have approximately that many generations
Eonwe Valar: Most humans would only have a few children as well.
Eonwe Valar: 2-3
Orodreth V: 2.5 kids, a dog, and a 2 story house.. :-\
ArPharazonV: I could easily see it doubling every 2 generations or so
ArPharazonV: maybe a bit more, but...
ArPharazonV: could be hundreds
Orodreth V: And humans are known for being prolific :-P
Eonwe Valar: Plus they got married at an older age, and gave the scepter to their heir at an older age
ArPharazonV: yes, Eonwe, but that is only in the direct royal bloodline
Orodreth V: Dosn't matter when they married as long as they had kids.
VardaValar1: Royal blood was carefully watched. Also, only a finite number escaped Numenor
Orodreth V: and what he said.
ArPharazonV: as the lesser princes mingled, their lifespans became lesser
ArPharazonV: and they married sooner
ArPharazonV: and more generations than those 25 must have taken place, thus
Orodreth V: Once you get a couple generations removed, it's not watched as closely
VardaValar1: As the bloodline became more dilute, it had less elven
ArPharazonV: less elven... but never none
Orodreth V: Assume that the second king had a younger brother
Eonwe Valar: Not watching it has created some problems in the past, if I'm not mistaken.
Orodreth V: one the king had his son, the younger brother is out of the line of scuccession barring some very intereting events
VardaValar1: They had to keep track of the bloodlines for that reason, Oro
Orodreth V: ah
Menelvagor Valar: well... if the half-elves are considered among the Eldar, and Elros among the Edain, wouldn't that imply that, even though statistically they have elven blood, they are fully human?
Orodreth V: but when that younger brother had two kids
VardaValar1: Look at current royal lines
Orodreth V: and each of them had two
Orodreth V: that..4th? generation would be far, far removed from the succession
ArPharazonV: yes, menel... so their lifespans cannot be contributed to the Eldar
ArPharazonV: but that doesn't mean the blood remained in them
ArPharazonV: *remained not
Eonwe Valar: You mean like Amandil and his some Elendil, who eventually became the rightful rulers of GOndor and Arnor?
Orodreth V: you've got siblins, uncles, and cousins before first cousins 3 times remobeved or whatever they'd be
Eonwe Valar: some = son
Eonwe Valar: to put more clearly, his bloodline
ArPharazonV: even Aragorn had Elven blood, and he was like 50 generations after Elros
ArPharazonV: the blood remains, no matter how small the proportion
VardaValar1: But Aragorn was not considered "of the elves" with that teensy drop
VardaValar1: All of Elros's descendents were considered of "Man"
VardaValar1: Because Elros chose to be numbered among them
ArPharazonV: yes, true
ArPharazonV: but that's not what we're discussing here
ArPharazonV: none that lived in Numenor were considered 'of the elves'
Orodreth V: So if everybody had two kids and only two kids (yea, right) they'red be 27 kids running around besides the folks who got stuck with bign king
VardaValar1: You want to say most Numenoreans had elf blood?
Orodreth V: after the 5th generation
ArPharazonV: no, but I will say that everyone descended from the Royal House had elf blood
ArPharazonV: which surely could have amounted to a lot in the end
VardaValar1: Those with elf blood had a high chance of being killed for being members of the Faithful, cutting the numbers
Eonwe Valar: Phar, we're not arguing against that :}
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: Right. The royals from Elros were part elf. Not just every Numenorean on the street
Eonwe Valar: Anyone descended from Elros would have Elf blood
ArPharazonV: and yet, Varda, the Faithful were led by descendants from Elros
Orodreth V: if everyone had three kids (getting closer) and you knock it up to 25 generations..that's alot of people who are more or less directly decended fromt he royal line
Eonwe Valar: We're discussing Average joe Numenor
VardaValar1: Remember the culling process while you are at it, please : )
Eonwe Valar: Who would later be the anscestor fo Average Joe Gondorian.
Orodreth V: To like, 5 average joe gondorians
ArPharazonV: several of the important Numenorean families may have mingled with members of the Royal House at some point
Orodreth V: Gondorians were more Middle-Earth then Numenorean, as I understtod it.
Orodreth V: They would have had to
Eonwe Valar: Elves may have been visiting Numenor for a while, but remember what Laws and Customs Among the Eldar says about them choosing their mates.
ArPharazonV: as such, I'm still not convinced the House of Stewards had no elf-blood in them whatsoever
Orodreth V: It's the Game of Thones.
VardaValar1: Their lives shortened as they crossed outside Numenorean lines
Orodreth V: Stewards? Who knows.
Orodreth V: Which would mean even more kids.
VardaValar1: It tells about the Stewards
Orodreth V: Which would mean more dilution.
ArPharazonV: it tells about the Stewards from Hurin from Emyn Arnen (or something like that)
VardaValar1: They had more Numenorean blood, less dilution
Orodreth V: Does it tell their ancestors prior to them ruling?
ArPharazonV: and it says they came from an important Numenorean family
VardaValar1: Also, they crossed into the group in Dol Amroth, were related
ArPharazonV: that too
Orodreth V: But the point is, simply by looking at the numbers, we have to assume that at least a large percentage of the Numenoreans had some (small) bit of Elven blood in them.
Orodreth V: Of course, while looking at this, we also don't know how big the population is.
ArPharazonV: and even moreso with the Gondorians, perhaps... since the blood continued to spread within them
ArPharazonV: maybe even mingling with the House of Rohan, at some point
Eonwe Valar: We have to assume that,why?
Orodreth V: For a given value of "large" and depending on how big the Numenorean population was.
Eonwe Valar: Most of what you're suggesting is a best case scenario
VardaValar1: How about Faramir and Eowyn? : )
ArPharazonV: if the House of Stewards had elven-blood within them (and it is somewhat probable), so would Faramir have had it
Orodreth V: I mean, if there were 10,000+ Numenoreans, then the royal line wouldn't matter if it was twice as long.
Orodreth V: But if there were 1000...
ArPharazonV: why does your text turn grey right after 'Numenorean'?
Orodreth V: )which seems rather small)
VardaValar1: Faramir is related to those of Dol Amroth
Orodreth V: I have no idea?
VardaValar1: It tells of it in LotR
VardaValar1: They are related
ArPharazonV: ah, right
ArPharazonV: Faramir's mother
ArPharazonV: Finduilas
VardaValar1: Correct, Finduilas
ArPharazonV: as families continue to mingle, the elven blood originating in Elros or the house of Amroth may have spread to a large part of the population, given enough time
Eonwe Valar: The worst case scenario, which is quite likely and in fact created a precedent in Numenor, is that there would be only one child born in the Royal family.
ArPharazonV: indeed, if Lotr had really happened, I wouldn't be surprised if most of today's western population had a tiny tiny bit of Elven blood in them
Eonwe Valar: That precedent being the Ruling Queen.
VardaValar1: Or at least everyone would wish to claim they had Elven blood ;-)
ArPharazonV: even we might have Elven blood
ArPharazonV: that may explain our interest in the old histories :-)
Eonwe Valar: That's, or Hobbit Blood :}
ArPharazonV: Eriol could have been a small part Elvish
Eonwe Valar: We do get a few instances in the SIl where there is a second child born the the Royal family, and it usually turns out to be an important event in history, i.e Silmarien and the Lords of Anduni�, Pharazon's father, brother to
Eonwe Valar: Tar Palantir
Eonwe Valar: Gimilkhad I think, or some other strange spelling
ArPharazonV: something like that, aye
Orodreth V has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Wow, I spelled it right
Eonwe Valar: SO, I guess this conversation is dead.
ArPharazonV: aye
VardaValar1: sorry
VardaValar1: Chatting with hithershore
Eonwe Valar: We have quotes to support one side, theory to give a sense of plausibility to the other.
VardaValar1: Quotes win! hehe
ArPharazonV: neither of them excluding the other, actually
ArPharazonV: since the theories are expanded from the quotes
ArPharazonV: and no quote contradicts the theories
Eonwe Valar: Then I'll have to find quotes to fix that :}
ArPharazonV: so either we haven't found one bit of conclusive information...
ArPharazonV: or both sides win!
VardaValar1: I saw nothing to show that non-royals of Numenorean descent had elf blood until they crossed with Imrahil's people
Eonwe Valar: I have to agree
Eonwe Valar: Lineage is something closely guarded and not lightly "thornw away"
Eonwe Valar: *thrown
ArPharazonV: I saw nothing to show that no royals at any moment have mingled with lesser population... and indeed, it was only until the generation that marriage of an heir with someone not descending from Elros was forbidden
ArPharazonV: for example
ArPharazonV: if you look at the tale of Aldarion and Erendis, their daughter ended up marrying a guy she had never met, but who just happened to be a distant relative and descendant of Elros
ArPharazonV: which means they didn't all keep track of each other
ArPharazonV: or very rarely
Orodreth V has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back : )
Orodreth V: Heh, thanks.
VardaValar1: Not everyone would be into geneology, but it would be known and was known when checked
Eonwe Valar: Or the guy wasn't important to the story, heh :}
ArPharazonV: in fact, if you look at the family-tree in that same story
ArPharazonV: you'll see that it was not rare to have at least 3 children in a marriage
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe. A lot of that : )
ArPharazonV: Elros had 4 children
ArPharazonV: Vardamir had 4 children
Eonwe Valar: UT or BoLT?
ArPharazonV: UT
ArPharazonV: story of Aldarion and Erendis
Eonwe Valar: getting up to get it
Orodreth V: I'm just wondering here
Orodreth V: what is prioirty of canon tht we use?
Orodreth V: LotR-Hobbit-Sil-Ut-BoLT?
VardaValar1: BoLT can hardly be considered canon. Just early notes
ArPharazonV: I'd say Lotr, the Hobbit and the Sil are equally important... if they contradict each other, the Silmarillion is probably inaccurate
ArPharazonV: so it's Lotr+Hobbit/Sil/UT... indeed
VardaValar1: UT is also considered with many grains of salt
ArPharazonV: unless I'm misinterpreting the term 'canon'
ArPharazonV: but when the first 3 fail to give information, there is no need to assume that UT is wrong
VardaValar1: Phar, I'm only half-listening and your question deserves more than that
Eonwe Valar: I would say where UT and BoLT contradict Sil, the Sil is to be taken
VardaValar1: We did set up canon
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: Aye, LotR is at the top, Hobbit with care, Sil next
ArPharazonV: but what is 'canon'?
Orodreth V: the real deal
Eonwe Valar: LotR taken over Hobbit because Hobbit is a CHildren's story
VardaValar1: The Histories of Middle-earth are taken case by case
VardaValar1: LotR is at the top
VardaValar1: canon
Orodreth V: canon is what actually happened?
VardaValar1: It is the only really complete
Orodreth V: It's hard to explain for me
VardaValar1: Yes, Oro
Eonwe Valar: canon means it's "legitimate" or "official"
Orodreth V: that's better
Eonwe Valar: or "complete"
ArPharazonV: hmm...
ArPharazonV: so UT can be seen as nearing 'canon'
VardaValar1: Official is a good way to say it
Eonwe Valar: The Sil is the final version of many of the tales Tolkien didn't get to put together himself.
VardaValar1: LotR is the final word, as it is the most completely finished
Orodreth V: and with the most typos found :-P
ArPharazonV: the Hobbit isn't bad either, although it is not fully tied up with the earlier history
ArPharazonV: for it was created to stand independent in a way
Eonwe Valar: HoME includes many early version and I would use those mostly for insight than for overruling the Sil or LotR
Orodreth V: I can't think of anything beyond some details about the elves and dwarves that the Hobbit gives us..
Eonwe Valar: UT I put generally on the same level as HoME
Orodreth V: And a little bit of more detailed geography, I gues
ArPharazonV: yes, Eonwe, but where Lotr or Sil do not give the relevant information or do not contradict HoME or UT
Orodreth V: so I don't really know what it could voerrrule :-P
ArPharazonV: those latter two can be used for bringing new matter in the conclusions
Eonwe Valar: Except where the commetary says "this idea was abandoned" :}
ArPharazonV: yes, but where it says that, there usually is a replacement found that contradicts the earlier idea
Eonwe Valar: They might not just contradict in wording, but in attitude of the person and tone of the story.
Orodreth V: some of HoME's stuff is things that normal people find too boring, but can be used in comparisons or what have's a case by case basis for me like Eonwe said
Eonwe Valar: As I recall, Ulmo in the early tales is different than what we know of Ulmo in the Sil.
ArPharazonV: that is true
Eonwe Valar: Just as an example, so his early info should be taken carefully.
Orodreth V: iirc Peoples of Middle Earth has a bunch of stuff that isn't condradicted anywhere
Eonwe Valar: There are some nice gems in there
ArPharazonV: correct, Orodreth.. so information found there may well be used in discussion of like matters
Eonwe Valar: Laws and Customs Among the Eldar being one of them.
Orodreth V: yea
Orodreth V: possibly one of the most cited passages in the whole mythology
ArPharazonV: well, in HoME, at least :-)
ArPharazonV: together with the Fall of Gondolin in BoLT, perhaps
Eonwe Valar: Some stuff in ther eabout the Seven peoples of the Dwarves if I recall correctly.
Orodreth V: LotR has too many good's all spread out there :-P
ArPharazonV: LoTR is a gem in itself ;-)
ArPharazonV: here's a thought... Lotr is a Silmaril
Eonwe Valar: LotR is 3 Silmarilli :}
Eonwe Valar: I think it's safe to call an adjournment to the meeting.
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*
ArPharazonV: *table breaks*
Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
VardaValar1: :-)
VardaValar1: *instantly repairs table*
ArPharazonV: so, Varda.. do we have a new member?
VardaValar1: No
VardaValar1: not yet
VardaValar1: Her brother wants to turn off the modem
Eonwe Valar: Aul�'s been slipping :} That table shouldn't have broken so easily :}
ArPharazonV: does she want to join? or not sure yet?
VardaValar1: It was only an illusion created by Pharazon
ArPharazonV: hmm... been looking at Arathorn's screenshots throughout the meeting
ArPharazonV: I carred this one a long while...
ArPharazonV: *carried
hithershore has left the room.
ArPharazonV: is the aftermeeting dead as well?
Eonwe Valar: Sing a good Dwarf song :}
ArPharazonV: a Dwarf song? don't know any
Eonwe Valar: Here's something on the Stewards
Eonwe Valar: PoME says they were ultimately of royal origin
ArPharazonV: where?
Eonwe Valar: from King Minardil it seems
Eonwe Valar: 203 on my Hardback edition
Eonwe Valar: Heir s of Elendil
ArPharazonV: "They were descended, father to son, form Hurin, Steward to King Minardil"
ArPharazonV: *from
Eonwe Valar: so they were descended "only recently" from the royal line
ArPharazonV: no, they only descended from his Steward, not from himself
Eonwe Valar: those are my quotes, signifying they aren't descended from the line in Numenor, but from the Lrods of Anduni�
Eonwe Valar: *Lords
Eonwe Valar: who became the rulers of GOndor and Arnor
ArPharazonV: it says they were descended from King Minardil's Steward
ArPharazonV: I do not see where it says they were descended from the King himself
Eonwe Valar: scratch that, misread
ArPharazonV: also, that would contradict Appendix A, I think ;-)
ArPharazonV: the earliest ancestor of the House of Stewards is indeed that Hurin, Hurin of Emyn Arnen
ArPharazonV: but beyond Hurin we know nothing, except that they were an important family of Numenorean blood
ArPharazonV: which led me to believe they might have had a small mingling with the Royal line at some point
ArPharazonV: or at least the Royal house
ArPharazonV: and may have obtained Elven blood from that mingling
ArPharazonV: that is all I know... and as far as I know, we will never know more :-(
Eonwe Valar: Well, it seems to be intended that they have some part in the Royal line at least as far back as Elendil.
Orodreth V: am I thhe only one who thinks Arathorn spends WAY too much time in WoW?
Orodreth V: I was just looking at the screenshots page
Orodreth V: and he's got like 4 or 5 40+ characters
ArPharazonV: if I thought that, Orodreth, I would be hypocritical...
ArPharazonV: but then again, I only have one character above lvl 10
Eonwe Valar: I don't spend enough time there :} I should be 60 already :}
VardaValar1: He also exercises, goes to meetings
ArPharazonV: and he's just become lvl 49 today
VardaValar1: I'm 59 ;-)
Eonwe Valar: but I've only got 1 lvl 58 and 1 lvl 50 :}
VardaValar1: Lothar is the only one I'm going to count, Eonwe ;-)
Eonwe Valar: fair enough :}
Eonwe Valar: It's the one I play most :}
ArPharazonV: concerning Argent Dawn, I only have one character
ArPharazonV: at lvl 49 since tonight!
VardaValar1: Congrats again : )
Orodreth V: I got deus ex from a friend a coupel days ago
Orodreth V: that game is funness
FINARFIN010 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: but Fladrif went online a few days before me, and I surpassed him big time... although he has been catching up lately, until he went on vacation
VardaValar1: Aiya Finarfin!
FINARFIN010: :-)
ArPharazonV: now he's 45, approaching 46, I belive
ArPharazonV: *believe
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Since the part about the Stewards in PoME only gives a hint at an intended link as far back as Anarion/Elendil, it doesn't get to help you in your case, Phar :}
ArPharazonV: so I have him beneath me still ;-)
Orodreth V: and I played theif: DS at his house before that..and don't get it if you like stealth games
Orodreth V: I mean, moss arrows? whaaa?
ArPharazonV: it doesn't contradict it either, Eonwe ;-)
AuSteinM has left the room.
VardaValar1: Finarfin, do you play a D2X hardcore character in Nightmare?
VardaValar1: I'm still trying to figure out who that was
Orodreth V: absence of evidince is not evidince of absence
Orodreth V: or whatever
Orodreth V: I'm sure that applies shomehow
VardaValar1: Oro, it sure makes thin proof
FINARFIN010: i now have "Guild Wars"
VardaValar1: Congrats!
FINARFIN010: thanks
VardaValar1: Rog was asking in an email who else plays Guild Wars
ArPharazonV: "though (they) were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin"....
Orodreth V: I'm probally gonna gett hat as my next game
Orodreth V: my first mmo
Orodreth V: >.>
ArPharazonV: which means they had Elven blood in any case
VardaValar1: He would like to play with some other Valar members
FINARFIN010: i would love to play with other guild members
VardaValar1: I know several do, but not everyone tells us
VardaValar1: We will try to help you get together
Orodreth V: it is guild wars, after all..
VardaValar1: hehe
FINARFIN010: i have only had the game for 5 days so i am a real novice at playing :-)
ArPharazonV: but we're not the warring type, Orodreth :-)
VardaValar1: Good! He hasn't had it long either
FINARFIN010: :-)
Orodreth V: Truth
Eonwe Valar: Judgement of Fionw�.. sounds scary.. What'd I do? :}
VardaValar1: Guild Wars does not require warring between guilds any more than WoW does
Orodreth V: I hear it does have a little PvE action at the start to get you warmed up though
Orodreth V: From what I hear that IS the main attaraction
VardaValar1: Too many people won't game unless they can kill other people
ArPharazonV: yes, human nature is great that way
Orodreth V: That's like saying CS dosn't REQURE you to fight vs outher can always fight 1v1 :-P
FINARFIN010: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Gollum had the RIng for 1900 years
VardaValar1: I just know what some actual players told me
ArPharazonV: we aren't having fun until we're making other people miserable... what the heck does that say about us?
VardaValar1: It says I decline duels : )
Eonwe Valar: Same here :}
Orodreth V: it's interesting that both games like halo which is even lower then mindless killing and games like Splinter cell sell well..
VardaValar1: You guys have to hear the Tolkien topic Finarfin came up with
ArPharazonV: declining duels makes the challenger often quite unhappy
VardaValar1: Tough : )
VardaValar1: I didn't ask for it
ArPharazonV: unless the challenger is somewhat above me, and I have nothing better to do at the time
ArPharazonV: I just say yes and get it over with
FINARFIN010: here it is
VardaValar1: I say no and get it over with : )
ArPharazonV: it's often quite fun, too...
ArPharazonV: I'm horrible at pvp, but when they're a few levels under me, I can practically kill them by spamming moonfire
FINARFIN010: what is the differance between the heroism between Aragorn, Frodo, and Samwise and which was harder?
VardaValar1: On the "harder" part, wouldn't that be like comparing apples and oranges?
Orodreth V: yarr, death by spam
Orodreth V: yarr
ArPharazonV: *opens mouth* *shuts it again*
ArPharazonV: is it harder in general, or harder based on what the personality in question can handle?
VardaValar1: Frodo had to have incredible endurance, hold back from temptation
Orodreth V: the difference I'm too lazy to explain, becasue I want to do some skibiing on tft, but the hardest is obviously samwise's
ArPharazonV: for example, Samwise would have found it a lot harder to defend Helm's Deep than Aragorn
FINARFIN010: here are some things to think about...
FINARFIN010: appointed tasks.
FINARFIN010: inherented tasks
FINARFIN010: love of friendship
Orodreth V: I don't know how anyone can not see samwise as the hardest
FINARFIN010: why
Orodreth V: wait
Orodreth V: heroisim or courage?
Orodreth V: there's a difference
FINARFIN010: it is hard to distinquish between the two
FINARFIN010: but if i had to say..
ArPharazonV: is this 'heroism' based on the tasks they decide to do, or their actual accomplishments?
VardaValar1: What is the difference, then which is harder
FINARFIN010: being afraid and still trying
FINARFIN010: is brave
FINARFIN010: and heroic
ArPharazonV: for example, Frodo did a great job resisting the Ring, and yet he failed in the very end
FINARFIN010: right
FINARFIN010: but sam resisted the ring as well
Orodreth V: there's a quote fromt he first gulf war..
ArPharazonV: but sam only had it for a few days
Orodreth V: the only reason we need heros is becasue of mistakes
VardaValar1: Phar, see my article on wny Frodo actually could be said to have destroyed the Ring
FINARFIN010: hehe
Orodreth V: we don't want any heros today, people
FINARFIN010: not me.
VardaValar1: Sam did not even have it for days, just a short time, and still found it hard to give up
Orodreth V: ring this ring that
Orodreth V: ring ring ring
ArPharazonV: I have not read your article, Varda.... but I can tell you this, Frodo in the end actively decided not to destroy the Ring
FINARFIN010: right
Orodreth V: blah balh balh
ArPharazonV: balh?
Orodreth V: blah
Orodreth V: blah
ArPharazonV: hlab
Orodreth V: lhba
Orodreth V: whatever
ArPharazonV: ablh
FINARFIN010: why did tolkien have frodo not destroy the ring?
Orodreth V: I think we're reeeeeely bored
VardaValar1: You may stop spamming now, Oro and Ar
Orodreth V: not sure
Orodreth V: sorry >.>
Orodreth V: anyways
VardaValar1: Try answering the question. That could keep you busy
Orodreth V: my point was that there's too much focus on the ring
ArPharazonV: (he started it) ...anyway, Tolkien wanted to show a different kind of heroism
FINARFIN010: yes there is
VardaValar1: The story just happens to be about the Ring
ArPharazonV: he wanted to show that not every hero is a super-hero
FINARFIN010: rught
FINARFIN010: tight
FINARFIN010: right
Orodreth V: it was a great burden, yadda, yadda, yadda, yes, yes we know
Orodreth V: sure
Orodreth V: and that's exactly why too many people focus too much
Orodreth V: it was centered on the ring
FINARFIN010: tolkien want to show that there were some evils too great for mere mortals to overcome
Orodreth V: the story is not "frodo had a ring and he almost destroyed it but someone else destroyed the ring"
FINARFIN010: hehe
Orodreth V: with no details about who frodo is
Orodreth V: or who the other person is
Orodreth V: or who helped frodo
ArPharazonV: what, are you saying Gollum is a hero now?
Eonwe Valar: Yes, don't worry about this silly Ring, the least of trinkets. Give it to me, and I'll take care of it....
Orodreth V: or details about who helped frodo
ArPharazonV: give it to me.... my precious
Orodreth V: Ok, look, Sauron wanted to run over me with his car once.
Orodreth V: I am not him. >.>
FINARFIN010: here is something to ponder...
ArPharazonV: btw, Orodreth, the story is called 'Lord of the Rings'... and the first book is called 'the Fellowship of the Ring'... one would expect the Ring to play a significant part
Orodreth V: anyway,s I still say samwise was the most courageous
Orodreth V: but again
VardaValar1: Oro, a lot of people agree with that
Orodreth V: there are details about things beside the ring, yes?
FINARFIN010: remember when frodo and sam were brought to the king in the cmapetr :The Field of Cormallen and the qute goes
FINARFIN010: :Frodo ran to meet him, and Sam follow close behind. :Well, it this isn't the crown of all! he said. "Strider, or I'm still asleep!"
Orodreth V: he did not have the..hard to explain it
ArPharazonV: also, Frodo showed courage by not throwing the Ring in Anduin when he had the chance... he saw what had to be done, and he set out to do it until the very end
FINARFIN010: "Yes sam. Strider, said aragorn, "It is a long way, is it not from bree, where you did not like the look of me?
FINARFIN010: A Long way for us all, but yours has been the darkest road,'
FINARFIN010: ...
FINARFIN010: what did aragorn mean by that?
Orodreth V: there's somethingabout frodo that always suggested something a little darker and deeper lurked within..and yes, I said "darker", I can't figure a better way to describe it
ArPharazonV: that he had lived a large part of the road half in the Shadow-world
ArPharazonV: and that he had sustained more injuries and scars than anyone else
Orodreth V: anyways, becasue of that that kind of kept him alive
FINARFIN010: yes some what.
Orodreth V: samwise had blind faith in frodo..and the courgage to keep it
FINARFIN010: but not all
Orodreth V: not heroicisim, even carring frodo up the mountian
FINARFIN010: good Orodreh
Orodreth V: courgae and faith
ArPharazonV: and love and friendship
VardaValar1: I'm looking at the quote. Strider is speaking to both Frodo and Sam.
Eonwe Valar: No other of the Fellowship had to endure watching what the Ring did to Frodo.
FINARFIN010: and frodo's currage
ArPharazonV: had they not been friends, he would not have had this blind faith
FINARFIN010: he spoke to sam
Orodreth V: faith includes and consumes the love and friendship
ArPharazonV: love is blind
ArPharazonV: so can faith be
FINARFIN010: curage and faith are a large part of heroism
VardaValar1: Look at it in context.
ArPharazonV: those two are not unrelated
Orodreth V: you're arguing that you agree with me?
Orodreth V: or what?
FINARFIN010: somewhat
FINARFIN010: what of aragron
FINARFIN010: and Frodo
VardaValar1: He speaks directly to Sam, but his actions are not just to Sam.
Orodreth V: Frodo is more heroic and aragorn is a trumped up prince boy with dreams a grandeur ;-)
FINARFIN010: how do you distinquish between them and still tie them togeather as Heroic.
FINARFIN010: but the commet is
ArPharazonV: something one has to remember when using the English language.. your and yours can be both singular and plural ;-)
Orodreth V: I honestly don't see what everyone else does that's so special about aragorn
FINARFIN010: hehe
FINARFIN010: why
Orodreth V: h was a member of the fellowship..whoohoo?
Orodreth V: so were, at last count, 8 others
FINARFIN010: yup
FINARFIN010: so....
VardaValar1: Aragorn is not just deluded into thinking he's "grand", he is actually a king and reunites Man into the new force that runs the world.
ArPharazonV: well, he... uhm... recruited the Army of the Dead to his side
FINARFIN010: you are saying he was not heroic
Orodreth V: glee?
Orodreth V: he shouted a bunch at people bound to his will anyways
Orodreth V: yippy?
Orodreth V: He might have been brave to take the step, but not by any means heroic
Orodreth V: *does sarcastic cheer*
VardaValar1: Aragorn was willing to sacrifice everything he had, which was considerable, to help Frodo.
FINARFIN010: so you are saying he was not heroic
ArPharazonV: also, Elrond said to Aragorn that he would not wed his daughter to any mortal less than king of both Arnor and Gondor... had Elrond not done that, would Aragorn still have undertaken his journey?
ArPharazonV: again, love may have played a part
Orodreth V: ^what he said
FINARFIN010: you still have not answered the question
VardaValar1: Since others felt it important without that requirement, he could have also
FINARFIN010: you side step it.
Orodreth V: Aragorn was the worst off King in Exile I have yet to see
Eonwe Valar: How many kings have you seen in exile?
ArPharazonV: there's a difference between heroism for courage, and heroism for love/friendship... both in the case of Sam and Aragorn
FINARFIN010: i have not seen very many to judge, myself
Orodreth V: He commands, what, a company of men?
FINARFIN010: hehe
FINARFIN010: the rement of ...
FINARFIN010: nene
VardaValar1: All the rangers of the north, and he has the sons of Elrond working with him.
ArPharazonV: although love/friendship can strengthen the courage, it does not depend upon the nature of the individual
Orodreth V: and is in love with an elven woman (like every man to see 'em) and can't touch her without helping frodo..I don't see what he's losing here
Eonwe Valar: He had the Dunedain of the North at his command.
Orodreth V: he has everything to gain
FINARFIN010: anyway all you have does not porve anything
FINARFIN010: you have yet to answer the question
Eonwe Valar: He also has his life and his entire line to lose
Orodreth V: all he can lose is his life and his chance with arwaen, but he dosn't hav ethat wihout fixing up frodo
Orodreth V: n/a
VardaValar1: Aragorn put all his chances of love, kingship, and his life into a diversion for Frodo.
Orodreth V: and he could have lost his life anyways
Eonwe Valar: If he dies without an heir, there is no return of the King
Orodreth V: being a rager is a high-risk job
Eonwe Valar: He could've have just as easily taken the Ring
Orodreth V: no workers comp either
Eonwe Valar: but he would've lost Arwen
FINARFIN010: to me Arwen.. forgive me ladies..was Icing on the cake.
Orodreth V: ..I think that was what
Orodreth V: I said
VardaValar1: np : )
Orodreth V: well, not exactly
ArPharazonV: hey, baby, I got the Ring and rule both Gondor, Arnor, and Mordor.... wanna get hitched?
VardaValar1: Arwen was a strong motivating factor. Not the only one.
FINARFIN010: hehe
VardaValar1: All you have to do is give up your immortality for a few years with me.
Eonwe Valar: Arwen would not have had anythign to do with him had he taken the Ring. It would've been a betrayal to her and her people.
VardaValar1: Oh, and give up your family and chance to see them in Valinor.
Orodreth V: and then Arwen, being the good Elf she is, slaps Aragorn but good, takes the ring, and chucks it in Mt. Doom from the Shire. >.>
ArPharazonV: who knows, even Elves have a desire for power and status in a way...
FINARFIN010: what is Frodo's heroism
VardaValar1: Arwen had power and status without some dingy human king of a small area.
Orodreth V: ring sturggle
ArPharazonV: Galadriel wanted a realm for her own, and Feanor's pride cannot be denied
Orodreth V: anyone who denies Feanor's pride hasn't read the story :-\
ArPharazonV: I dare say that Elrond's 'realm' was not as large as Arnor, Gondor and Mordor combined
VardaValar1: Did someone deny Feanor's pride?
Orodreth V: uhhh
Orodreth V: no
FINARFIN010: Galadriel did
Orodreth V: Pharazon was just pointing out he had it, like we didn't know
Eonwe Valar: In the end, each of the Fellowship took what they knew was going to be a hard road.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: Boromir didn't... he just took the easy way and died
Orodreth V: I still don't see why Legolas and Gimli went
Eonwe Valar: Boromir took a hard road, fell, and redeemed himself
VardaValar1: Boromir wasn't supposed to be in the Fellowship : )
Orodreth V: to make sure the other race didn't one-up them?
FINARFIN010: when frodo said " I will take the ring, though i do not know the way... was this heroic
VardaValar1: It was, Fin
Eonwe Valar: They went as representives of their people.
Orodreth V: yarr, yes
ArPharazonV: he knew it was his task, and he took it up without hesitation
FINARFIN010: how does that differ from Aragron taking up his heratige
ArPharazonV: courage, yes... heroism? don't know
Orodreth V: Eonwe: So, to make sure the other race, or, Eru forbid, humans didn't one-up them. I figured as much.
FINARFIN010: so tell me Ar. how do you define heroism?
VardaValar1: Boromir's redemption was extremely heroic, no way to survive but he did it anyway
FINARFIN010: yes
ArPharazonV: I have no idea, Finarfin, that's why I asked the question so long ago
Orodreth V: That's heroisim.
FINARFIN010: good answer.
FINARFIN010: run to the dict. and look it up.
Orodreth V: remember: heros only happen from mistakes
ArPharazonV: ArPharazonV: is this 'heroism' based on the tasks they decide to do, or their actual accomplishments?
FINARFIN010: and people do not plan to be heros. History calls them that
VardaValar1: That is your opinion, Oro : )
Orodreth V: it was a mistake not to throw the ring in mt doom after the Battle, and it was a mistake to try and take the ring from Frodo
Eonwe Valar: Not all heroes are recognized by History.
FINARFIN010: true
Orodreth V: Yea, but people are asking what makes a hero, so I answered
ArPharazonV: it was a mistake to let Melkor participate in the Music ;-)
FINARFIN010: but heros do make mistakes as well
VardaValar1: Heroes are often quoted as saying they were just trying to do what needed done.
Orodreth V: The ultimate mistake, haha
FINARFIN010: :-)
Orodreth V: Varda: Exactly
VardaValar1: One may try, but that does not mean they succeed, and may die trying. Does that make the deed less heroic?
Orodreth V: not in the slighest
ArPharazonV: the deed? perhaps.... the thought behind it? no
Orodreth V: oh, and just becasue you're fixing a mistake does not make you a hero
ArPharazonV: again, a difference between what one sees as heroic
VardaValar1: Is heroism the accomplishment or the attempt?
FINARFIN010: sometimes it does
ArPharazonV: that's my question, Varda
Eonwe Valar: It is boths
FINARFIN010: to have the courage to admit the mistake and take action upon your addmital
Orodreth V: anyone who's read the tales of Odysseus and though t about it realizes he was more pig-headed and pridful then heroic.
Orodreth V: He more or less barely made it alive from every situation he encoutered, more or less by luck.
Orodreth V: And then look at the sirens!
Orodreth V: anyways
ArPharazonV: Fingolfin's attempt to duel Melkor... heroic, or just stupid?
VardaValar1: I am saying the attempt is the spirit.
Orodreth V: stupid
VardaValar1: Fingolfin was in despair. Decided to make his death worth something.
FINARFIN010: Aye i was a bit Fey at that time
Eonwe Valar: F�anor's attempt to take on 7 Balrogs at once: heroic, or stupid?
Orodreth V: ..but it was still stupid
ArPharazonV: ..stupid
Orodreth V: it was a brave stupid duel
Orodreth V: but it was stupid
ArPharazonV: the thought behind it was not heroic?
Eonwe Valar: Finarin's decision to go back to Valinor: heroic, or stupid?
ArPharazonV: how about Feanor's attempt to follow Melkor and reclaim what he had stolen: prideful, stupid, or a bit heroic?
Orodreth V: wait
VardaValar1: or smart?
Orodreth V: who?
FINARFIN010: I was neither. It was desprate. and totaly emotionaly
Orodreth V: uuh
Eonwe Valar: *Finarfin
Orodreth V: I don't know how you'd call ignoring the will of the vala, when they're right heroic
Orodreth V: and it was more the stupid, it was pridful
ArPharazonV: Turin seeking to face the dragon... heroic?
ArPharazonV: had he failed, would it have been seen as heroic or stupid?
Orodreth V: Let's see
VardaValar1: Should we get back on topic? We were asking if Aragorn, Sam, or Frodo did anything heroic?
Eonwe Valar: Obeying your king and father when you know he's sending you on a suicide mission: heroic, or stupid?
Orodreth V: Depends on the objective of the mission
FINARFIN010: no i was asking what was the differance between there herosim
Eonwe Valar: er, change king to Steward.
ArPharazonV: oh, you mean Faramir
Orodreth V: If you're supposed to assainate the enmy king by poking a stick in him..stupid
VardaValar1: First you have to know what the acts of heroism were.
ArPharazonV: btw, Eonwe... the word is 'loyal' :-)
Orodreth V: nah
Orodreth V: heroic or stupid works fine there
Orodreth V: in Faramir's case?
FINARFIN010: loyalty can creat herosim
Orodreth V: heroic
VardaValar1: If we have people claiming they did nothing heroic, it's hard to compare. : )
ArPharazonV: so can love, friendship, and courage, Finarfin
FINARFIN010: hes
FINARFIN010: yes
ArPharazonV: can wisdom breed heroism?
VardaValar1: Phar, yes
Orodreth V: not so much
FINARFIN010: can street smarts breed herosim?
Orodreth V: but yes, I suppose
Eonwe Valar: Well, here's an unfavorable way to look at it:
Orodreth V: oo, my point of view
Orodreth V: continue
ArPharazonV: can anger and despair breed heroism?
FINARFIN010: yup
ArPharazonV: thinking Fangorn and Fingolfin once again
Eonwe Valar: Each person faced what they were destined to face, so it's not heroic. Or,
Each person knew what they were getting themselves into, so it's not heroic.
Eonwe Valar: SO none of the Fellowship, including Sam, were heroic.
ArPharazonV: depends on your definition of heroism, Eonwe :-)
VardaValar1: They were destined to face it. But they had free will to run.
Eonwe Valar: Of course, I disagree with that completely, but I thought I'd throw it out there :}
ArPharazonV: depends on your definition of destiny, Varda ;-)
VardaValar1: Without free will, it is hard to show heroism even if present.
VardaValar1: How do we react to choices before us?
Orodreth V: without free will the entire arument becomes a moot point
FINARFIN010: I too disagree... was mrs. shackvillbaggins heroic
ArPharazonV: in that case, Varda... it's the thought behind it that makes the heroism, not the achievement
Orodreth V: because obviously it's predestined that I'll win
Orodreth V: >>
VardaValar1: Phar, my point exactly. It is the spirit trying that is heroism.
Orodreth V: can someone do a heroic act withut knowing it?
ArPharazonV: in that case, a man shot on the street for trying to fight off a mugger, is heroic
FINARFIN010: is charging windmills heroic?
FINARFIN010: yes they can
VardaValar1: Lobelia faced up against beings stronger than she was, defending. So quite likely
she was heroic. She could have been quiet and hid.
Eonwe Valar: Only if the Windmills look like giant,s Finarfin
FINARFIN010: hehehe
FINARFIN010: or ents?hehe
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Lobelia had her own moment of redemption.
FINARFIN010: right
ArPharazonV: if Turin had lost to the Dragon, the deed would still have been heroic
FINARFIN010: and so did Frod
Orodreth V: charging up to ents is just stupid :-P
FINARFIN010: Frodo
FINARFIN010: sam
FINARFIN010: and aragorn
Orodreth V: but again
FINARFIN010: yeah you might get a splinter or something
VardaValar1: It is the person's perception that is important. What does he think he is trying to do?
If he thinks the windmills are giants and he is defending others against them at risk to himself, then yes.
Orodreth V: can someone do a heroic act without knowing it?
VardaValar1: He does not know they are windmills.
FINARFIN010: right
Eonwe Valar: No, it had to have been stupid. He shouldn't be so prideful as to think he can kill a dragon.
Eonwe Valar: (playing Melkor's advocate with that one)
Orodreth V: I need to reread that story
Eonwe Valar: Yes they can, Orodreth
FINARFIN010: our basic truths are guided our preceptions at the time
ArPharazonV: and, of course, there's the matter of perspective and writing history!
If the Sons of Feanor had succeeded in carrying away all 3 Silmarils with a massacre of Elves and
Men at their back... would they have seen it as heroic?
FINARFIN010: why not
Eonwe Valar: Most people who are heroes don't set out to be heroic
Orodreth V: I say yes
Orodreth V: but that does not
Orodreth V: by any means make the person heroic
FINARFIN010: yeah but history is usually writen by the winners of the battle or war.
VardaValar1: A fact is a fact, no matter what people write or believe.
Orodreth V: only time it's not is when the winner's get routed soon after
VardaValar1: If I am wrong, nothing I say will change that.
FINARFIN010: but sometimes reality is just a matter of preception
ArPharazonV: in that case, Orodreth, the winner is not the real winner :-)
Eonwe Valar: reality is reality, it's the perception that changes :}
FINARFIN010: and if down the road all you have is a writen history with no one there to say other wise you have a reality
VardaValar1: No, you have a perception of reality.
ArPharazonV: it is the part of reality that we see and rightly interpret that is different throughout time
Orodreth V: when did aristotle come into this? -.-
FINARFIN010: right
Orodreth V: I took greek philosophy last year :-\
FINARFIN010: between the soup and salad i believe.
VardaValar1: :-)
ArPharazonV: if a tree falls in the wood with nobody around... does it make a noise?
Orodreth V: socrates > you all
Eonwe Valar: yes it does
VardaValar1: Yes, it does make a noise
FINARFIN010: desocrates
Orodreth V: only if you don't hear it
Eonwe Valar: what is the sound of one hand clapping
Eonwe Valar: ?
VardaValar1: It does not matter if you hear it. A noise still occurred.
FINARFIN010: anything creating a vibration in the air ....
Orodreth V: desocrates was a bum
Orodreth V: socrates > all
FINARFIN010: a one handed man having a good time
Eonwe Valar: what about Plato?
Orodreth V: pfft
FINARFIN010: heorim
FINARFIN010: ism
Orodreth V: Plato just wrote Socrates down
Orodreth V: then he started using him as his mouthpeice
Orodreth V: He had good ideas
Eonwe Valar: Da Vinci? Galileo?
Orodreth V: but Socrates > Plato
VardaValar1: If they say something in a way that helps us state what we are trying to state, that is nice. : )
Orodreth V: Lightweights
FINARFIN010: well my time here is very short and i must be off... i will write varda my thought
 on this so as you all will have a chance to judge me and my silly thoughts
ArPharazonV: I think because I am... yet if I don't think for a moment, do I cease to be?
Orodreth V: do you see an Galliians around?
Orodreth V: No.
VardaValar1: Nothing silly there
VardaValar1: I will be thrilled to read it
ArPharazonV: Namarie Finarfin!
VardaValar1: You can also toss it onto the Forum
VardaValar1: Namarie!
Orodreth V: Socrates influenced the next 2 and a half milliena worth of philosophy
FINARFIN010: but for now let me say... It was great to be here tonight... I realy miss you ALL.
Orodreth V: aristotle did too of cuse
Orodreth V: but socrates still > him
VardaValar1: You caught us this time ;-)
VardaValar1: Please come again!
FINARFIN010 has left the room.
VardaValar1: Oro, I very much like Socrates too. Can't argue with you. : )
Orodreth V: amborse Peirce was a genius by the way
VardaValar1: Ambrose Pierce
Eonwe Valar: You want a genius,.. there's this guy named Tolkien.. :}
VardaValar1: Good one, Eonwe : )
Orodreth V: Cogito cogito cogito ergo cogito cogito sum.
Orodreth V: I think that's right.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Cogito ergo sum
Orodreth V: I think that I think that I think there for I think that I think that I am.
VardaValar1: I think you think that.
Orodreth V: I think I think I do.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: I think we have a good time
Eonwe Valar: I hear there are people who talk about his works :}
Orodreth V: I think we're all a little loopy.
VardaValar1: Who might that be, Eonwe?
Orodreth V: Not us?
VardaValar1: So we have Aragorn, Frodo, and Sam.
VardaValar1: Oro, I think your vote was for Sam?
Orodreth V: Yersh.
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, apparently they call themselves the Valar Guild :}
Eonwe Valar: I was thinking of joining :}
Orodreth V: huh. learn something new every day
VardaValar1: Think you can pass the tests, Eonwe?
ArPharazonV: my vote is on Frodo... I think his heroism was the greater for his motivations were less personal
Eonwe Valar: I don't know, I hear they're pretty hard.
VardaValar1: A day not wasted then, Oro
Eonwe Valar: I vote for them all
VardaValar1: *tap tap* Just light
VardaValar1: I agree with Eonwe : )
Orodreth V: I downvote Aragorn. :-\
Eonwe Valar: You just hate him because he's a king :}
ArPharazonV: you jealous boy
Orodreth V: Bah.
VardaValar1: Aristocrat-hater ;-)
Orodreth V: Being king is too much work.
Orodreth V: ALMOST as bad as being PReisident
VardaValar1: Then let Aragorn do it and you don't have to worry about it. : )
ArPharazonV: doesn't that make Aragorn courageous for accepting the workload?
Eonwe Valar: Let's see you do some responsible kinging like he does and then tell me he's not heroic :} ALl that paperwork...
Orodreth V: Exactly..but I still downvote him.
Orodreth V: Pfft.
Orodreth V: President > King in paperwork.
VardaValar1: Heroic to take on responsibility by the bucketloads
Orodreth V: Wussat saying
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it's not easy to be a person in power when you're doing your job.
ArPharazonV: or just greedy of power and willing to take the casualties to his spare time :-)
Orodreth V: "Duty is as heavy as a moutian, and death as light as a feather."
Eonwe Valar: Robert Jordan
Eonwe Valar: Wheel of TIme.
VardaValar1: Everyone likes to tell you you're wrong, and you have to figure out what is the right thing to do.
Orodreth V: He ripped it off the Orientals.
Orodreth V: I believe the Samurai came up with it.
Orodreth V: Not sure offhand though.
ArPharazonV: anyone here likes Discworld?
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, and everyone thinks they can do your job better, but none are willing to get up there and take your place :}
VardaValar1: Death can be a very heavy thing to face
Orodreth V: <3
ArPharazonV: I recently started reading the books
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe : )
Orodreth V: The color of magic is so much <3
VardaValar1: Go for it, Phar! Your review can go in the Forum : )
ArPharazonV: so far I've read Thief of Time and Guards! Guards!
Orodreth V: The rincewind books are the best.
Orodreth V: ppft
ArPharazonV: but I'm thinking of buying more and more
ArPharazonV: these two were given to me by someone who's already a fan
VardaValar1: So, does Frodo beat out Aragorn in the heroism dept, Oro?
Orodreth V: the books about captian what'shisname arn't as sgood as the others
ArPharazonV: captain Carrot?
Orodreth V: By a long shot.
Orodreth V: No.
ArPharazonV: Vimes?
Orodreth V: Commander of the force
Orodreth V: Yea.
ArPharazonV: I heard from somebody Carrot makes it to Captain...
Orodreth V: Vimes is very good
Eonwe Valar: I'm sorry, I'm not accepting any applications for new books to read at this time,
but if you fill out this form, it will be processed as soon as we open for applications once more. :}
VardaValar1: hehe!
Orodreth V: but Rincewind still > him
ArPharazonV: Thief of Time was amazing
ArPharazonV: with the five horsemen, and the auditors....
Orodreth V: Ahahaah
Orodreth V: the auditors
VardaValar1: *cracking up over Eonwe's comment still*
Orodreth V: are so much <3
ArPharazonV: and the sons of time who turned out to be one and the same
Orodreth V: Those things
Orodreth V: probally exist
Orodreth V: you know
VardaValar1: Fangorn says, "Allow six weeks for approval."
Orodreth V: nonono
Orodreth V: six to eight weeks
VardaValar1: There you go : )
Eonwe Valar: Oh definitely :} We've got to run it through our R&D department first, make sure they haven't already thought of it :}
ArPharazonV: so far, out of the two, Thief of Time is my favourite ;-)
ArPharazonV: was a little harder to grasp, but eventually very nice to read
VardaValar1: ahhhk
Orodreth V: Book reading R&D? haha
VardaValar1: But they slashed R&D's budget, again.
ArPharazonV: and the yeti still cracks me up... Thaaat stung a biiit...
Orodreth V: Thief of Time is a very good read, I must admit. But it has Death's granddaughter, and all of those involving
Orodreth V: Death's kids are good
Eonwe Valar: If we do not process your application in the allotted time, please file with our Claims department using form 17J-LX3 Beta. Your books are important to us. Please hold :}
Orodreth V: Death of Discworld is the coolest Death..ever
ArPharazonV: definitely
VardaValar1: Download the form at this site. Sorry, 404 Error.
Orodreth V: For assistance please contact the following number, and wait on hold until the problem fixes itself.
Orodreth V: I MEAN UH
Orodreth V: You will be assisted proptly
VardaValar1: Actually they sound really interesting. I hope to read them eventually
ArPharazonV: there are just so many of them...
Eonwe Valar: I already told Ulmo I'd read a series of books, so they have to come first :}
VardaValar1: Which series?
Orodreth V: There are a couple of miniseires in them
Eonwe Valar: on top of the line of books I said to myself I'd read :}
Eonwe Valar: Wizard of Oz.
Orodreth V: you've got Death's kids, the Vimes collection, and the Rincewind collection
VardaValar1: I have a stack as tall as I am, just of reference to go through
Orodreth V: and a few others
Eonwe Valar: L.Frank Baum
ArPharazonV: Thief of Time falls under Death's kids-category?
Orodreth V: I need to get around to finishing the Foundation series
Orodreth V: nah
Orodreth V: more of a cameo
ArPharazonV: :-)
Orodreth V: but his granddaughter does play a major part int he end, right?
ArPharazonV: I don't suppose there's more about the Monks of Time?
Orodreth V: the chocolate?
ArPharazonV: yes, she does
ArPharazonV: heh
Orodreth V: death by chocolate
Orodreth V: that has to be
ArPharazonV: and Unity LeJean
Orodreth V: the best death ever
Orodreth V: I don't remmeber any more about the monks of time
ArPharazonV: the only auditor to turn human and stay that way
Orodreth V: but I havn't read them all
Orodreth V: only most
ArPharazonV: what was the sweeper called again?
Orodreth V: the monks of time are cool though
Orodreth V: not sure offhand
Orodreth V: his book is <3 though
ArPharazonV: :-)
Orodreth V: "is it not said that..."
ArPharazonV: heheh
Orodreth V: so, there's this place that talks about these books by this guy names Tolkien.
ArPharazonV: but my favorite character just has to be the yeti
VardaValar1: You guys are telling spoilers, so I have to quit reading : )
Orodreth V: cool, huh? :-P
Orodreth V: Pfft.
Orodreth V: We tell nothing of the plot.
VardaValar1: It does have a plot? oh good ;-)
ArPharazonV: yes, it does... and I fear we may already have revealed too much
Orodreth V: Nah.
ArPharazonV: I will say one more name however: Ronnie Soak.
ArPharazonV: and, of course, Mrs. War
Orodreth V: Only thing that might ruin a tiny bit for you is death by chocolate..and there's no foreshadowing, so unless you continualy remember'll be fine
VardaValar1: I remember such details, unfortunately
Orodreth V: Mrs. War is so funny,
Orodreth V: "Now honey, you know what all that fighting does to your ulcer.."
VardaValar1: I'm going to go scrounge up some supper. And a bite of Eowyn's cake : )
ArPharazonV: do I like to ride out? no you don't... or something like that
Orodreth V: haha
ArPharazonV: and the angel with the iron book ;-)
VardaValar1: I'll save the transcript to the point where I ride out. If any of you would like to send more of the transcript after, feel free : )
ArPharazonV: will do, Varda!
VardaValar1: Namarie!
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: and WoW beckons....
Orodreth V: that is an uxorious
Orodreth V: man
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Orodreth V: anyways
Orodreth V: I meant to play skibi's
Orodreth V: like an hour ago
ArPharazonV: that TD?
Orodreth V: so...
Orodreth V: yea
Orodreth V: wanna join me?
ArPharazonV: I'd like to, but it's getting late... is it a long game?
Orodreth V: And Eonwe, in case you didn't know, the creator got hired by Blizzard
Orodreth V: can be
Eonwe Valar: cool
Orodreth V: depend on how good of a team we get
ArPharazonV: in that case, I'll leave you be... will go to bed in like fifteen minutes
Orodreth V: That's why it's an offical blizzard map now
Orodreth V: he was hired last august ish
Orodreth V: supposed to have a big hand in the blizzard trigger maps
ArPharazonV: last augustish? you mean a year ago?
Orodreth V: yea
Orodreth V: guess so now
ArPharazonV: anyway, guess that's it for today
ArPharazonV: btw, I did Uldaman this week in 2 tries
ArPharazonV: did a loot-run with two of out high guard-guildmembers in the Monastery
ArPharazonV: and today I had my first attempt at Zul'Farrak, got all the scarab-shells and the ancient tablet
ArPharazonV: and that item you need to get from sergeant Bly or w/e his name is
ArPharazonV: got to lvl 49 today, joined a raid to defend Theramore yesterday, and I guess that's my highlights from this week's WoW
Eonwe Valar: congrats
ArPharazonV: thanks
ArPharazonV: you know, I hear a lot about people who have trouble with pickup-groups
ArPharazonV: but I guess I've always been lucky
ArPharazonV: concerning quests, I did the Monastery, the Stockade, and Blackfathom Deeps in one try
ArPharazonV: Uldaman, and both Razorfen-instances in 2 tries
ArPharazonV: had a little trouble with Deadmines, took me 3 days, but ended with a good group
ArPharazonV: Wailing Caverns I never could get a group for, except once with Gondoline to near the end, and recently soloed it
ArPharazonV: and whenever a group fell apart it was always because I or other group-members ran out of time or crashed, and never because of arguing about loot or anything
ArPharazonV: and most of the times when people left because of lack of time, we managed to find replacements within 5 minutes
ArPharazonV: and I always got good friends out of those adventures :-)
ArPharazonV: so although the initial gathering of a group may be a pain, the grouping itself has always been one of the most fun aspects of the game... no matter what complaints other people may have about pickup-groups
ArPharazonV: what's your experience with non-guild-grouping, Eonwe?
Eonwe Valar: I don't do it much
Eonwe Valar: Not too bad with 2 or 3 people when I do do it though
Eonwe Valar: I haven't had serious problems.
Eonwe Valar: Worst I've had is Paladins who don't seem to understand if there's 3 Paladins, 3 blessings per person are possible.
ArPharazonV: haha
ArPharazonV: what's your class again?
Eonwe Valar: Admittedly, when the group is 3 Paladins, there's not a whole lot at low late 20s/early 30s to throw on eachother
Eonwe Valar: I'm a Paladin
ArPharazonV: aha
Eonwe Valar: or was it late 30s..
ArPharazonV: ever had troubles concerning your role in groups, or the roles of others?
Eonwe Valar: Been too long since that to remember exactly
ArPharazonV: you know, tanking, healing, that sort of thing
Eonwe Valar: No, but I only do instances with people I know aren't going to hassle me
ArPharazonV: heheh
Eonwe Valar: I do what I do, and as long as I do that, I'm happy :}
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: I keep blessings on people to the best of my ability (they don't drop very often)
ArPharazonV: well, as long as the rest can do what you don't, it's good
Eonwe Valar: I heal when I see it's absolutely required
Eonwe Valar: (when there's a "real" healer in the group they should be healing)
ArPharazonV: as a druid, one is often set in the healing role... but as a feral druid, I'm much happier tanking
ArPharazonV: I've never made myself the group healer
Eonwe Valar: I try to keep the cloth and leather guys alive.
ArPharazonV: when we're gathering, I'm always like... you know, I can tank, but we really need a priest or a paladin or something :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: And most importantly, I'm on the front lines :} I chose a melee class for a reason after all :}
ArPharazonV: my 'healing' is usually limited to a few buffs and the occasional resurrecting of the priest who got too much aggro :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: I may be a ranged class, but I've specialized in melee... bear and cat
Eonwe Valar: I generally heal only when necessary because any Priest or Druid has a much bigger mana bar than I do.
Eonwe Valar: That's what they call a "hybrid" :}
Eonwe Valar: Druids are hybrids
ArPharazonV: that's true.... but my mana is mostly spent on shapeshifting and the occassional moonfire... for I'm quite often the party's puller
ArPharazonV: and, of course, buffing the entire group with both mark of the wild and thorns from time to time can really deplete one's mana-bar
Eonwe Valar: that's why you carry drinks :}
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: For you, it's 30 minutes for Mark, 10 for Thorns
Eonwe Valar: For me, it's 5 minutes for any buff
Eonwe Valar: who's going to need to drink more? :}
ArPharazonV: usually the party-mage supplies the other mana-users with conjured water of different kinds :-)
Eonwe Valar: aye
Eonwe Valar: that is a nice reason to havea amge
Eonwe Valar: *mage
ArPharazonV: and the ranged damage-dealing, of course...
Eonwe Valar: and Arcane Intellect is nice
ArPharazonV: or the occasional AoE-spell for swarms of non-elite creatures...
ArPharazonV: like the large groups of scarabs today in Zul'Farrak :-)
Eonwe Valar: MOst mages I've played with poly then attack
ArPharazonV: or the scorpions in Uldaman
ArPharazonV: aye, poly is good too
Eonwe Valar: I'm the guy who aggroed this with my AoE when I was there :}
Menelvagor Valar: [hew
Menelvagor Valar: phew*
Eonwe Valar: *thos = those
Eonwe Valar: *this = those
ArPharazonV: :-)
Menelvagor Valar: 19 warrior in Deadmines did a nice Leroy action
Eonwe Valar: No, not Leroy...
ArPharazonV: today, we had either me in cat-form (for attack and movement speed) or the paladin running around attacking scarabs, with the other healing
Menelvagor Valar: this time though, we managed to avoid a wipe
ArPharazonV: and when they were all focused together, the mage released a fine blizzard
ArPharazonV: what's a Leroy-action again? I've heard of it, but...
Menelvagor Valar: massive suicide -> wipe action
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
Menelvagor Valar: he once wiped a 40-man raid
Menelvagor Valar: on his own
Eonwe Valar: Consecrating yellow-labelled scarabs was the worst and only big mistake I've made.
Eonwe Valar: I can't stand hearing that now
Orodreth V: heheh
TheSirG3: whoa, this is still going?
Eonwe Valar: I've been reading the BLizzard Forums too much.
Orodreth V: don't hear it as often in tft
Menelvagor Valar: heh
Menelvagor Valar: it's not even 4 PM
ArPharazonV: like me summoning the 2 dragons in the Badlands before the mana-users had recovered their mana...
ArPharazonV: that was a Leroy Jenkins of myself
Menelvagor Valar: nah, that's ok
ArPharazonV: well, it caused a wipe
ArPharazonV: but we came back, and the dragons were still there
Menelvagor Valar: it's pulling Van Cleef while the rest is hearing tactics being dealt
ArPharazonV: so we pulled them one by one
ArPharazonV: and won
Menelvagor Valar: they're not that tough on their own
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that is foolish.
ArPharazonV: yup
Menelvagor Valar: it's together when they rock
Menelvagor Valar: got wiped myself the first time as well
Menelvagor Valar: and that was with Galion
Eonwe Valar: pulling Van Cleef when everyone is discussing the battle plan.
Menelvagor Valar: especially when the puller is a 19 warrior
ArPharazonV: the second attempt they were flying around that pillar... and we thought... well, ready? let's pull 'em
Menelvagor Valar: nevertheless, we managed, without a single casualty
ArPharazonV: and the mage pulled... and only one came...
ArPharazonV: and I was like... oh well, that's convenient
Menelvagor Valar: never more true, Phar :-)
Menelvagor Valar: nearly got my paladin to 26 too :P
ArPharazonV: nice
Menelvagor Valar: just need him to complete some Stockade quests and he's 26 :P
ArPharazonV: heheh
Menelvagor Valar: as in hand in :-)
Menelvagor Valar: but I figured 2 priests to DM's wasn't going to be good :-)
ArPharazonV: meh, it's ok... they can heal each other ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: so I took my pally :-)
Menelvagor Valar: not indefinitely
Eonwe Valar: Once you get Seal of Wisdom you'll be fairly good for mana
ArPharazonV: beware
Menelvagor Valar: besides, pally who does 100+ damage, and 200+ crit
ArPharazonV: my cat is walking around the pc and the keyboard
Eonwe Valar: if you're doing sword/shield or a real fast two-hander anyway
ArPharazonV: so if you get some jibberish out of me, you know it's the cat
TheSirG3: I so can't keep up with this =P
Menelvagor Valar:
Menelvagor Valar: how's that?
Menelvagor Valar: not fast, but with seal of judgment
Menelvagor Valar: can do up to 600 damage on both crits
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Verigan's fist is THE Paladin weapon up into your late 30s
Menelvagor Valar: plus, I got over 1200 defense with my aura on :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I know
Menelvagor Valar: I had 2 60 guild mages escort me through the process of getting the items needed for it at lvl 24 :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heh, I didn't get mine till late 20s
Eonwe Valar: Found another Paladin who still needed it.
ArPharazonV: ah, lvl 60.... 11 levels away....
Menelvagor Valar: that's the good thing about having 60's in the guild :-)
Eonwe Valar: I wish I could show you the weapon I found yesterday, but no way I knwo of
Menelvagor Valar: and I guess being the guild leader helps a bit as well :-)
ArPharazonV: do you know the mob? the zone? the name?
Menelvagor Valar: what's its name?
Eonwe Valar: It's not "uber" but it's nice
Eonwe Valar: Eastern Plaguelands off a unique boss.
Eonwe Valar: good question, I don't know the name off the top of my head :}
Eonwe Valar: Lord something or other was the mob
Menelvagor Valar:
Menelvagor Valar: this one perhaps?
Menelvagor Valar: Lord Darkscythe
ArPharazonV: Lord Maxwell Tyrosus :-)
ArPharazonV: Ranger Lord Hawkspear
Eonwe Valar: Darkscythe was the guy
Eonwe Valar: and that's the weapon
Menelvagor Valar: thottbot is real handy :-)
ArPharazonV: I'm using Allakhazam :-)
Eonwe Valar: Beat out my Bonebiter Axe, the Truesilver Champion I was going to make, and the Serenity that I was going to make after becoming a Macesmith.
Menelvagor Valar:
ArPharazonV: erm....
ArPharazonV: a bit outdated?
ArPharazonV: gosh, I'm shirtless there... must still have been before Necori sent me those items
ArPharazonV: still wearing the red shirt she sent.... must not have been long thereafter
Eonwe Valar: so, the Alakazam one has everything he can drop?
ArPharazonV: everything that he has dropped, I think
TheSirG3 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: excellent, I may have to go shopping, er, met up with him :}
ArPharazonV: at least by people who are registered and linked at that site or something
Eonwe Valar: Don't know how much of it is any good yet, but let's take a look..
ArPharazonV: oh, one more thing about Allakhazam you should know...
ArPharazonV: in contrary to thottbot, the comments must be read from the bottom one up
Eonwe Valar: as long as it doesn't charge me for following links to its site
ArPharazonV: with the exception of the indented responses, of course
Eonwe Valar: list too long. I'll just hope for the best if I run into him again
ArPharazonV: heheh
Eonwe Valar: Anything in the Eastern Plaguelands drop Girdle of Uther?
ArPharazonV: type in girdle of uther, and we'll see :-)
ArPharazonV: look at the section "Eastern Plaguelands"
ArPharazonV: seems like a lot of guys can drop it
ArPharazonV: not a good drop-rate, though :-)
Eonwe Valar: so it'll take an act of God to get it :}
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Which is fine, since I'm a Paladin and rely on acts of God to get good damage anyway :}
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
Eonwe Valar: ?
ArPharazonV: which warcraft-god are we referring to here?
Eonwe Valar: I'm just using the term "act of God"
Menelvagor Valar: Elune of course :-)
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, time for me to head to bed
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}
Menelvagor Valar: I take it you will save the transcripts, Phar?
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
ArPharazonV: yes, I will
Eonwe Valar: Since Paladins are "Holy Warriors" the term fits
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie
ArPharazonV: but still, Eonwe
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: 'The Light'... to what holy god does that refer?
ArPharazonV: one of the titans?
ArPharazonV: or an old god?
Eonwe Valar: It doesn't say
Eonwe Valar: However, the Titans seem to be created beings in and of themselves
ArPharazonV: you know, there's a priest-quote in Warcraft 3 that captured my attention
Eonwe Valar: which one would that be?
ArPharazonV: "I have been chosen by the big metal(lic) hand in the sky"
Eonwe Valar: ah, that
ArPharazonV: most say that refers to your cursor
ArPharazonV: but I also recall the titans were made of metal
Eonwe Valar: That's generally a joke, since the curosr is a metal gauntlet for Alliance.
ArPharazonV: so the big metal hand in the sky could be taken to refer to some patronic diety in charge of 'the light'
ArPharazonV: I know, I know
ArPharazonV: but still, it had me wondering if there was more behind it
Eonwe Valar: This is what I wonder
Eonwe Valar: We know both Human Priests and all Paladins get their powers from the Holy Light.
ArPharazonV: indeed
Eonwe Valar: Night Elves go to Elune.
ArPharazonV: yes
Eonwe Valar: *Night Elf Priests
ArPharazonV: ehm.... the Holy Moonlight?
Eonwe Valar: So what crazy personage gave Holy abilities to Undead?
ArPharazonV: corrupted light.... dark energy....
Eonwe Valar: The whole idea of Holy abilites has two general foci: healing and destroying undead.
ArPharazonV: aye.... it's quite obvious why there are no Undead Paladins
Eonwe Valar: Dark Energy the idea behind Shadow abilities
Eonwe Valar: *is
ArPharazonV: we have Undead priests, no?
Eonwe Valar: Yes, that's what I'm saying
ArPharazonV: maybe... just maybe... they exploit the Holy light in reverse
Eonwe Valar: Undead Priests should not have "Holy" abilities
ArPharazonV: they use Dark Energy for their healing, and the Holy light for their shadow-form
ArPharazonV: they just call it differently to justify their own alignment
Eonwe Valar: I find that both strange and wrong in some way.
ArPharazonV: I know... but it's all I can come up with :-)
Orodreth V: Eonwe: You're not Melkor..of course you would. :-P
Orodreth V: /me fades into black again
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: me, on the other hand.. I'm Ar-Pharazon the Golden, we already know of my evil-leaning ways
Orodreth V: <haughty elf-mode>
Orodreth V: Stupid foolish upstart human.
Orodreth V: Thinks they know everything just becasue there's more of them.
ArPharazonV: and justifying my alignment (especially to myself) is Pharazon's specialty!
Orodreth V: They're worse then rabbits.
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, at least the Elves only tried to take on one Vala.
Eonwe Valar: :}
Orodreth V: </haught elf-mode>
ArPharazonV has left the room.
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: ehrm...
Eonwe Valar: wb :}
ArPharazonV: wrong button
Orodreth V: heheh
ArPharazonV: looks like you'll have to save the rest, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, that's one of my main lore gripes.
ArPharazonV: I'll take that as my cue to go to bed
Eonwe Valar: and I want Elf Paladins! :}
Eonwe Valar: sleep well Phar :}
ArPharazonV: Namarie all
Orodreth V: Eonwe, as we all know, Blizzard is best at comign up with wonderful storys...full of plot holes big enough to swallow semis.
ArPharazonV: I'll be sending what I still have, saved not all too long ago
Eonwe Valar: Blizzard leaves those holes to be filled later
Orodreth V: I think the undead presit is best explained in this fashion:
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien didn't exactly spill the beans on everythign himself.
Orodreth V: It just does, mmkay?
ArPharazonV: Menelvagor Valar: I take it you will save the transcripts, Phar?ArPharazonV: Namarie!ArPharazonV: yes, I willEonwe Valar: Since Paladins are "Holy Warriors" the term fits
Eonwe Valar: No, the Holy abilites should be scorching him with every use until there's nothing left of him.
ArPharazonV: that's the last part of my transcript
ArPharazonV: I expect you, Eonwe, to save the rest
Orodreth V: Eonwe: It just works.
Eonwe Valar: Not good enough :}
Orodreth V: I have all the transcripts that I've been here
Orodreth V: ALL of them
ArPharazonV: that's also good
Eonwe Valar: and I know I'm not the only person wanting to call BLizzard on this :}
Orodreth V: the log must be huge by now
ArPharazonV: after you guys are done, can one or both of you save and send it in?
Orodreth V: I autosave
Eonwe Valar: Got it covered, Phar :}
ArPharazonV: I'll send in what I have right now
Orodreth V: But Eonwe's got the whole thing
ArPharazonV: ending with: Eonwe Valar: Since Paladins are "Holy Warriors" the term fits
Orodreth V: and my timestamps are a problem for varda
Eonwe Valar: you didnt't miss a whole lot by popping in and out, btw
Orodreth V: heh
ArPharazonV: I know, but I missed the later part of what happened before I popped out
ArPharazonV: so that's up to you
Eonwe Valar: OK, it'll be taken care of :}
Eonwe Valar: I am a Vala, am I not? :}
ArPharazonV: and this piece of discussion, I won't be saving
ArPharazonV: ok :-)
Orodreth V: I should turn timestamps off for this so it's useful for varda
Orodreth V: but someone else saves anyways
Orodreth V: and..I'm lazy
Eonwe Valar: always good to have mutiple peopel willing to save
Eonwe Valar: sometimes one of those saving can't make it or have problems with it.
Orodreth V: neh, like I said, I have all the meetings I've ever been in either on here or my laptop in two files
Orodreth V: :-P
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, I should probably head out as well, or at least go play some WoW while I have the chance :}
Orodreth V: actually
Orodreth V: hmm
Orodreth V: got my laptop feb last year
Orodreth V: so no
Orodreth V: the first 9 months of my time I don't have meetings for
Orodreth V: wow
Orodreth V: I've been here 2 years now
Orodreth V: missd my anniversary
Eonwe Valar: wow
ArPharazonV: it's sent
Eonwe Valar: Happy Belated Anniversary then :}
Orodreth V: man..
Eonwe Valar: THanks Phar :}
Orodreth V: two years o.0
ArPharazonV: my anniversary is in... 1 month and 4 days
ArPharazonV: also, 2 years :-)
Orodreth V: I barely remember the month I joined, heh
Orodreth V: sometime in june
ArPharazonV: I remember the week I discovered you
ArPharazonV: I found the website on Tuesday
ArPharazonV: looking for something with tolkien and warcraft, I think
ArPharazonV: read the most important parts
Orodreth V: measurements of time like that I concern my self not
ArPharazonV: sent an e-mail to Eonwe the very same day
Orodreth V: hah
ArPharazonV: and that Sunday I joined the meeting in bnet
Orodreth V: I don't even remember how I fould the guild
ArPharazonV: under MinotaurofChaos
Orodreth V: I think it was the website
ArPharazonV: at the end of the meeting, I tested
ArPharazonV: got 3 questions right out of 3, then I had to go
Orodreth V: I know I spent like two weeks with varda's 5 account son my flist trying to find her :-P
ArPharazonV: the next week, on the guild-anniversary, I finished the test, and joined the guild under the name of Ar-Pharazon-V!
ArPharazonV: and I don't regret it one bit :-)
Orodreth V: /me fondly remembers..pretty much nothing of the meetings, considering he slept through 60% of them :-P
ArPharazonV: heheh
ArPharazonV: I've joined nearly every meeting where I was not on vacation or anything
Orodreth V: /me does remember the fruit cannon..
ArPharazonV: saved almost every meeting since we've joined AIM
ArPharazonV: haha... me too
Orodreth V: and varda is not around!
Orodreth V: bahahah!
ArPharazonV: /roll
Orodreth V: /me pokes Eonwe with a stick
ArPharazonV: ah, doesn't work here
Orodreth V: I think it's safe
Orodreth V: /me rolls out the cannon and oils it up
ArPharazonV: well then, I think it's good for my own safety
ArPharazonV: that I go to bed now :-)
Orodreth V: /me begins loading it quickly
Orodreth V: /me fires in haste at the departing Ar
Eonwe Valar: sleep well :}
Orodreth V: eeek
ArPharazonV: /me dodges fruit frantically
Orodreth V: /me hides the cannon
ArPharazonV: Namarie all! and save, save, save!
Orodreth V: Nothing to see here. >.>
Eonwe Valar: Spend Spend Spend :}
Orodreth V: Namarie
Eonwe Valar: afk for a few seconds
ArPharazonV has left the room.
Orodreth V: Eonwe, you ever played RO?
Eonwe Valar: back
Eonwe Valar: what's RO?
Eonwe Valar: Well, I'm going to head out. Hopefully it'll add some stability to my connection on WoW.
Eonwe Valar: Take care