Valar Guild

July 24, 2005 Meeting

5pm ESDT (GMT -5)

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
IRC:, join channel #valarguild. Public Chat Valar
Sigma Chat: click on  Type in your guild name as the user name.
Say a greeting when you enter on any of these platforms so we'll know you're there!
Bridging program by Farmer Maggot-(V)
Today all bridges except SigmaChat operated at the beginning of the meeting; SigmaChat started later by Farmer Maggot
Back to News
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon-(V), Menelvagor-(Valar), Varda-(Valar). (Eonwe tried to save a transcript, but crashed.)

Attending: (13)
    ArathornValar, ArPharazonV, Elros-(V)/LouieKisKowsKi(crashed promptly, ouch!), Eonwe Valar, Finarfin-(V)/FINARFIN010, Finwe-(V)/aranfinwe, Gelmir-(V)/Shaggyjoe, Gil-galad-(V)/Xseanzee disco, GilraenV, FarmerMaggot-(V),  Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V, VardaValar1/bNetValar(presiding)

Meeting Begins
    Elwing-(V): LotR concert
    AuSteinM: New Tolkien-only
    Dwalin-(TV): New Tolkien-only
    Ar-Pharazon-(V): back
    Ulmo-(Valar) and Gothmog-(Valar)
    Finarfin-(V): the difference between live meeting and reading the web page notes
    Gelmir-(V): moving into apartment, working on celphone microwave towers, about to buy WoW and probably join our guild branch on Lothar. Still plays DAoC, will probably drop it for money to go to WoW.
    Server: AuSteinM's new server space for images mainly
        Screenshots new place
        Trainers pages added Mounts
    Tolkien Encyc: Glittering Caves art gallery: new webmanster, new server, new programming, old and new images, now taking more original images
        WoW Europe
        WoW Americas
        Guild banks: Diablo series, WoW Europe has one, WoW USA's is Kalasul run by Eonwe-(Valar)
        Cross-continental rumors 
    Varda's topic: Valar fellowship
    Gelmir's topic: Pipeweed
    Ar-Pharazon's topic: The three themes of music, how they translate into story events. Topic may re-start next meeting, after some re-reading.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1: Testing Bridge
bnetValar: Varda-(Valar) (Bnet): Good! Heard that message from AIM :-)
ArathornValar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Now if the browser would stay up while loading SigmaChat, I could test that
VardaValar1: Aiya Arathorn!
VardaValar1: I just got the bridge operating
VardaValar1: Required a capitol on the Reload command :-)
VardaValar1: Guess you're not really here
VardaValar1: The quick version of SigmaChat shows no Bridge
VardaValar1: !list shows no SigmaChat Bridge, but does show the others, even IRC
VardaValar1: okies
Shaggyjoe has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Shaggyjoe (17:02:06):  Evening
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya
GilraenV has entered the room.
Shaggyjoe: morning, and all that good stuff.
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
Shaggyjoe: Hows everyone?
aranfinwe has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Trying to make the Bridge operate :-)
GilraenV: aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
aranfinwe: aiyas...
ArPharazonV: just a few moments
VardaValar1: Good to see you
aranfinwe: gonna have to namarie...
ArPharazonV: let me get to an inn in Nethergarde (if there is one)
aranfinwe: too busy w/ work at moment
VardaValar1: Namarie
VardaValar1: No rush
ArPharazonV: if I crash, I was never here...
VardaValar1: Scroll is good
aranfinwe: hmmm...
ArPharazonV: if I crash, I can't scroll either
VardaValar1: The waters swallowed you and your fleet
aranfinwe: I'll see if I can leave it running in background
Shaggyjoe: yall still playing wow?
aranfinwe: but I won't be contributing tonight
VardaValar1: Eowyn is on it right now, other comp
VardaValar1: np, Finwe
VardaValar1: Work comes first
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Ok, that's everyone I see to invite
VardaValar1: Aiya Gil :-)
ArPharazonV: ok, no crash!
VardaValar1: woot! :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya Gil-Galad!
VardaValar1: The Bridge is operating everywhere except SigmaChat
ArPharazonV: soloed the Wailing Caverns 2 days ago, and completed the Razorfen Downs today
VardaValar1: Let's start! Be sure to let me know if you have something to toss in the pot
VardaValar1: Grats. That would be under WoW Europe gaming, but great job :-)
ArPharazonV: just a small mention from the sideline...

VardaValar1 (17:06:21): Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
VardaValar1: Membership News:
VardaValar1: Elwing-(V) went to the LotR Concert in Houston
VardaValar1: Her report is on the News if you'd like to check it out :-)
VardaValar1: We have two new Tolkien-only members
VardaValar1: AuSteinM is still trying to choose a guild name
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: hey :}
VardaValar1: He joined by showing up to meetings more than full members, and by his contribution of server space to solve our image problem
VardaValar1: Image as in pictures :-)
Shaggyjoe: aye
VardaValar1: Vinicius joined Monday, and has chosen his name
VardaValar1: He is now Dwalin-(TV)
VardaValar1: He joined as a Tolkien-only with his painting of Fingolfin vs Morgoth
VardaValar1: He thought at first that his agent would not allow him to send any further Tolkien pictures
VardaValar1: but since the agent can't make money without licenses from the Tolkien Estate which are not forthcoming
VardaValar1: np
VardaValar1: However he has a fierce time crunch
VardaValar1: He wants to take a batch of Tolkien-inspired sketches and turn them into paintings for us anyway
VardaValar1: Can't keep a good Tolkienite down
VardaValar1: Any further Member News?
VardaValar1: Anyone able to help save the transcript in case I crash?
ArPharazonV: I'm back from vacation!
ArPharazonV: so I can help with the transcript once more!
VardaValar1: Phar is back from vacation :-)
VardaValar1: Yay!
VardaValar1: Are you all nice and tanned now? : )
ArPharazonV: nope
VardaValar1: Pale from spelunking? : )
ArPharazonV: we remained in the Netherlands, and I must've spent like... an hour in total sun-bathing
VardaValar1: I burn in under half an hour. You must be tougher : )
ArPharazonV: so I may be nice... but tanned not so much...
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: well, it was in seperate 'sessions'
VardaValar1: Oh, Ulmo had some news
VardaValar1: This weekend he took Gothmog-(Valar), his son, to college
VardaValar1: Ulmo is back now, and he and I were playing WoW today : )
VardaValar1: Any other member news?

VardaValar1 (17:14:35): Web News:
FINARFIN010 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Thanks to the new server space from AuSteinM, we have a lot of activity
FINARFIN010: heya
VardaValar1: Aiya Fin!
FINARFIN010: hehe
VardaValar1: Thanks to the new server space from AuSteinM, we have a lot of activity
VardaValar1: And Fin is back : )
VardaValar1: Arathorn has been busily rebuilding the WoW screenshot page with the new space
VardaValar1: Please change your screenshots to jpg before emailing them to him
VardaValar1: Or put yours on a website and we'll link to it, whatever works
VardaValar1: In the Tolkien Encyc
FINARFIN010: just a very short pop in from me! :-( I have only like 5 min and need to be somewhere else right at this moment. I just could not stand it any longer not coming to the meetintgs. (there is something lost in the translation just
FINARFIN010: reading the notes on the web page
VardaValar1: Oh thank you for coming! Live is really special : )
FINARFIN010: thank you
FINARFIN010: but i must be off
FINARFIN010: Namaire
VardaValar1: Namarie : )
FINARFIN010 has left the room.
VardaValar1: The Glittering Caves, the Encyc art gallery, has been rebuilt from scratch, by me
VardaValar1: It is now taking only original work, which we have a fair bit of
VardaValar1: Anything in it is fair game for use in the Encyc, so it is a working art gallery
VardaValar1: If you have made something Tolkien-inspired, like sculpture, you can still take a photo of it and mail that in
VardaValar1: We have several of those, Frodo's head being one up now
VardaValar1: Ulmo plans to send photos of his carvings
VardaValar1: text/GlitteringCaves.htm
Menelvagor Valar: how about some pictures on a movie materials collection?
ArPharazonV: sorry if I'm afk occasionally... helping my father through the labyrinth that is the main menu of the Rotk-dvds...
VardaValar1: lol
VardaValar1: On behalf of parents needing such help everywhere, thanks
VardaValar1: My kids are good about helping with that sort of thing too : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
Menelvagor Valar: kids these days, becoming the teachers more and more often :P
Menelvagor Valar: don't let em get it to their heads
VardaValar1: Menel, it would be original work as in a collection, rather than of what you did?
VardaValar1: Too late, Menel ;-)
ArPharazonV: especially in the case of Tolkien or English, in my family...
Menelvagor Valar: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: well
VardaValar1: Menel, we are trying to take original work, but I could label it as a collection
Menelvagor Valar: I got some friends who have a huge collection of swords, helmets and even Sauron's Gauntlet incl. The One Ring
VardaValar1: Very cool!
VardaValar1: I just need to know who to credit
ArPharazonV: does it turn to ash when the ring is taken off?
Menelvagor Valar: sure, I'll ask them if they want to take some pics and send them to me
VardaValar1: Are you volunteering to try, Phar?
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: And what name it should be under?
Menelvagor Valar: especially with an object that has cost you like 300 bucks?
VardaValar1: My One Ring hasn't turned my finger to ash yet, but I'm a Valie
Menelvagor Valar: The One Ring would probably melt if I wore it...
VardaValar1: True : ) Star heat
Menelvagor Valar: after all, a constellation of stars is generally slightly hotter than a volcano
VardaValar1: If the pics are rigged so that we could use them to help illustrate the Encyc, that would be ideal
ArPharazonV: not within the constellation itself...
ArPharazonV: that's mostly empty space ;-)
VardaValar1: Such as a separate shot of Sting
VardaValar1: Pretty cool, too
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: Menel, think that would be workable?
ArPharazonV: but... would the pressure be so low, that the Ring would be torn apart?
Menelvagor Valar: well, I think I could have them take a couple pictures, and send those in, alongside edited versions of individual items
VardaValar1: If they know what it is for, maybe they could work something out : )
VardaValar1: Good idea! Give it a try and let's see what happens
Menelvagor Valar: I don't think they'll have a problem with it, but I'll ask first anyways, so no promises
VardaValar1: Sure, it's just a thought. No harm trying
Menelvagor Valar: indeed
VardaValar1: Anyone else have something they'd like to send in?
VardaValar1: If you think of something, my email is always open : )
VardaValar1: Any further Web news? Menel? Ara?
VardaValar1: WoW trainers page added a bit on Mounts
Menelvagor Valar: among the items they have, are Andúril, Narsil, Glamdring, the "swords" of Legolas, Sting, Aragorn's elvish "dagger" and Gimli's helmet
VardaValar1: If those could be separated, they would help a lot of articles!
VardaValar1: Long Elvish knives have been used as Hobbit swords : )
VardaValar1: Thanks, Menel
Menelvagor Valar: no prob :-)

VardaValar1 (17:29:01): Gaming:
VardaValar1: WoW Europe report?
Menelvagor Valar: we've recently reached the magical 75 account membership mark
VardaValar1: How is that magical? : )
Menelvagor Valar: it's huge :-D
VardaValar1: True : )
ArPharazonV: oh, small mention... my account will expire tomorrow...
VardaValar1: 74
VardaValar1: Any chance of renewal?
ArPharazonV: sure, getting the new gamecard tomorrow afternoon
VardaValar1: *whew*
Menelvagor Valar: accounts are saved on the bliz forums, so chars won't be deleted straight away
ArPharazonV: but it expires at 17:07 tomorrow afternoon
Menelvagor Valar: I'm not sure how long Bliz actually saves unused accounts...
ArPharazonV: so I should be able to activate the new one before the old one expires :-)
VardaValar1: Should be long enough for Phar : )
Menelvagor Valar: but if DaoC is any guide, at least half a year
Eonwe Valar: Chances are they keep it for some time.
ArPharazonV: and I read some time ago characters are kept for at least 6 months
ArPharazonV: so no worries there
VardaValar1: Phar, you had a comment earlier that could go here : )
ArPharazonV: oh, right...
ArPharazonV: ArPharazonV: soloed the Wailing Caverns 2 days ago, and completed the Razorfen Downs today
Menelvagor Valar: also, we're venturing into unknown territory for the guild, as we are currently exploring options to ally ourselves with other guilds, so we'll be better able to do high-end raiding content
ArPharazonV: also did a few quests I've been wanting to do for a long while
ArPharazonV: and by now, I could solo them.m..
Menelvagor Valar: heh... that's not all that hard :-)
VardaValar1: Do you guys also help low guys build up?
VardaValar1: Questing? Not just item raids?
Menelvagor Valar: anything really
ArPharazonV: if we're around, and they need help, I'm happy to help any time
Menelvagor Valar: and we do help out the little guys when help is requested
VardaValar1: Spoken like a Valar : )
Menelvagor Valar: We've also set up a bank char, so that items found by people can find their way to others who have need of those items, but haven't found them yet, or missed out on them
VardaValar1: I would like to think you got that idea from us. USA bank character is Kalasul, run by Eonwe
VardaValar1: Arathorn requested we discuss greater use of it, at this meeting
Menelvagor Valar: probably some unconscious memory then, I had forgotten all about it :-)
VardaValar1: Also we had the Diablo banks
Menelvagor Valar: too long since I played Diablo
VardaValar1: So you know it's a good idea : )
VardaValar1: Tested as good
VardaValar1: helps if you have people who understand the concept
Menelvagor Valar: well... like the Diablo banks used to be, our bank is updated regularly, and the contents put on site
GilraenV: I'm off, folks. Namarie.
VardaValar1: Namarie!
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie, Gilraen
VardaValar1: Suralda : )
GilraenV has left the room.
VardaValar1: In WoW, Gilraen had a character called Suralda : )
VardaValar1: Still up on USA
VardaValar1: Menel, how many characters do you use for banks?
Menelvagor Valar: is our forum if you're interested in taking a peek
Menelvagor Valar: 1 at the moment
VardaValar1: Indeed yes, thanks : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe, Arathorn requested that we start using the bank for a few items
Eonwe Valar: ok
VardaValar1: Menel, were you done with the WoW Europe report?
Eonwe Valar: Just send them to the bank :}
VardaValar1: I've seen you playing the Kalasul character lately and wondered if it would be a problem
VardaValar1: Ok, now relaying your info to Arathorn via Eowyn : )
VardaValar1: Menel? *nudge*
Eonwe Valar: Not really. I keep track of what's given for guild uses, and if space become a problem I can bounce between my characters or milk the 29 day mail limit for all it's worth.
ArathornValar: the problem with a wow bank is Eonwe has to do all the work AND there is limited space
VardaValar1: hehe - I do that. Works pretty well
VardaValar1: We should not load him up with all our junk mathoms, just good stuff
VardaValar1: Eonwe was just telling about using the mail bounce to increase space
Eonwe Valar: If we focus on tradeskill items, that might help too.
ArathornValar: we should have a forum on what is needed for quests that are expensive to buy or hard to get I think
VardaValar1: Patterns?
VardaValar1: We have one. Type when ready : )
ArathornValar: i.e. post what you need and we'll know more what the char should hold
ArathornValar: Im thinking more mats
ArathornValar: (materials)
VardaValar1: "mats" means materials
ArathornValar: heh
VardaValar1: Great minds...
ArathornValar: i.e. items a plan, recipe etc needs
Shaggyjoe: If I had time to play on my PC I would buy WoW just to play with yall.
VardaValar1: Anyway, it's very generous of Eonwe to offer bank space and we appreciate it : )
VardaValar1: Aww, thanks Gelmir : )
ArathornValar: I have a bunch of stones but that are needed for a BS quest but that's SO much bulk not prudent in a bank
Eonwe Valar: Contributions don't necessarily have to be high end stuff if you're character isn't. Many of us don't keep alot of the low end stuff once we get high enough in tradeskill (i.e. I don't carry around copper)
VardaValar1: Sometimes time can be made for things by careful scheduling and luck : )
Shaggyjoe: Actually, as soon as I get into my apartment, Ill go ahead and buy it and see if I can, aye, Make time.
VardaValar1: You would be in the USA?
Shaggyjoe: yep
Shaggyjoe: I suppose
ArathornValar: I think hard to come across stuff might be best.. something that we have to end up going to the ah for
VardaValar1: We would be happy to see you in Lothar server : )
Shaggyjoe: if thats where the majority is.
VardaValar1: Lothar server is where the guild branch is
Shaggyjoe: Lothar, ah okay. great, like I said, 2-3 weeks, once I get moved in ill get it.
VardaValar1: Tabard, charter, the whole nine yards
Shaggyjoe: what class would you suggest? I played a hunter in the beta.
VardaValar1: type /who Valar to see who is on and /w to whisper them : )
VardaValar1: I love hunter, myself : )
Eonwe Valar: One you're going to have fun with
VardaValar1: Play what you enjoy and you will be good
VardaValar1: You might want to try a variety, like Orome and Arathorn : )
VardaValar1: Some of us just stick to one or two
VardaValar1: That lets you advance faster
Shaggyjoe: I played a druid, the problem comes down to I dont have enough time to play 3 or 4 character types to maturity enough to stay with the main characters in the inital exploring.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, would you like to give the WoW USA report?
Eonwe Valar: Sure
Shaggyjoe: ill sush. [We went to a side window.]
VardaValar1: Mostly we play one to a high level
Eonwe Valar: Questing Location: Uldaman
ArPharazonV: Druids rule. Period.
Eonwe Valar: Questers: Sauron, Arathorn, Eonwë
Eonwe Valar: Quests Completed: Find the Gems, Hidden Chamber, Lost Tablets of Will
Eonwe Valar: Running in the front door, we dispatched the enemies in our way and made it to the instance.
Menelvagor Valar: afk
Eonwe Valar: Once there, we fought our way through to the Dwarf Baelog and his buddies. Talking to him and grabbing one of the Lost Gems from an urn in the corner, we then fought on to Map Room.
Eonwe Valar: Completing the Staff, Arathorn placed it in the stand and opened the Hidden Chamber.
Eonwe Valar: Out came a giant named Ironya, who wasn't willing to let us just walk in. We dealt with her, then Arathorn had to go.
Eonwe Valar: Moving on just the two of us, Sauron and I gathered the rest of the gems needed and the Tablet of Will and fought our way to the back door, hoping along the way to complete Restoring the Necklace.
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately, the golem at the door was not the one we wanted. Shortly after making our escape, we called it a night.
VardaValar1: Was it actually morning? : )
Eonwe Valar: No, we managed all of this by about 9 pm :}
VardaValar1: Congrats : )
VardaValar1: Arathorn and I played a good bit before official time, so we had to let you guys have some fun ; )
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Shaggyjoe: hmm.
VardaValar1: We have had people gaming and grouping pretty much daily
Shaggyjoe: how do you all think the Rogue's play? are they good a soloing, and more importantly do they have a viable role in group combat?
Eonwe Valar: I find my Rogue to be more item dependant than my Paladin, but that's only my experiences.
Eonwe Valar: Otherwise, my Rogue does nicely for himself.
ArathornValar: a mage and rogue are a great team I find
VardaValar1: My hunter teams very well with my brother's mage, also
ArPharazonV: ...what about a priest-rogue combination?
VardaValar1: Priest makes anyone stronger : )
ArathornValar: the rogue stealths and lies in wait.. the mage blasts and the rogue cheap-shots the enemy to a stand still .. mage takes him out :-P
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, my report is done :}
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: about 2 priests?
Shaggyjoe: I still play DAoC and my main class for the last 3 1/2 years has been a Nightshade, which is hibernia's stealthing assassin.
VardaValar1: Will you be playing both DAoC and WoW?
Shaggyjoe: I find the most fun in lieing hidden, waiting for some unsuspecting person to cross my path.
Shaggyjoe: I think im going to quit daoc
VardaValar1: Cheaper than two
Shaggyjoe: indeed.
Shaggyjoe: I wasnt going to play any MMoRPG for a bit, but if we are still strong on wow, I might give it a shot.
VardaValar1: WoW is quite fun : )
VardaValar1: If we could get all 30 WoW players to get on Lothar at least with an alt on guild Friday, we would be doing extremely well
VardaValar1: As it is, we do pretty good anyway : )
ArPharazonV: no news yet about cross-continental connections, right?
VardaValar1: There has only been the suggestion
VardaValar1: of special servers set up for that
Eonwe Valar: nothing I've heard
VardaValar1: Right now, they are too busy bringing in world sections. China quite recently
ArPharazonV: indeed...
Eonwe Valar: and the only thing I heard came from you, Phar.
VardaValar1: But you can still use an international credit card and a US WoW disk and come to Lothar from Europe
ArPharazonV: singapore, too...
VardaValar1: They are working on Asia
VardaValar1: So when all that is done, it is possible they will find a way to bring us together
VardaValar1: But it could have a language problem
Shaggyjoe: one more quick question, how does the PvP work?
VardaValar1: That's not quick : )
Eonwe Valar: Since we're on a normal server, PvP is consentual
Eonwe Valar: you have to flag yourself for PvP [Note: type /pvp]
ArPharazonV: or enter an enemy capital
Eonwe Valar: aye, ther eare a few occassion where you may end up with a PvP flag without wanting it
VardaValar1: Or hit an enemy or enemy npc with a flag
ArPharazonV: or buff/heal/rez another pvp-player...
Shaggyjoe: so, I cant just go to the woods and kill any enemy player I want whenever?
VardaValar1: Only if they are flagged
ArPharazonV: nope
ArPharazonV: yes
Shaggyjoe: and if someone is flag'd they are usually waiting to fight...
ArPharazonV: usually..
VardaValar1: To kill just anytime, you need a PvP server
VardaValar1: Sometimes they got the flag by accident
ArPharazonV: yup
Shaggyjoe: in which case me, as a solo assassin would either a. be getting into an ambush, or B. fighting someone who is able to fight me 1v1.
ArPharazonV: or they're done pvp-ing, but the 5 minutes aren't over yet...
Eonwe Valar: usually, unless they are like me and just ended up healing a guy they needed to escort for a quest and for some reason beyond their comprehension BLizzard made the guy PvP enabled.
ArPharazonV: heh, that sounds familiar
VardaValar1: Aye, I did that one too. Arie, the ent : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye, in Felwood.
ArPharazonV: I've done that several times, I think
ArPharazonV: not only Felwood
ArPharazonV: some other escortees as well
VardaValar1: Escort quests can be hazardous that way
Eonwe Valar: There are also Battleground, but the queue is crazily long right now
VardaValar1: But, if Horde is attacking our Alliance town and killing npc's, they are fair game
VardaValar1: We can defend our towns, so we can quest
Eonwe Valar: There's apparently not enough Horde wanting to fight in them to satiate the bloodlust of the Alliance.
ArPharazonV: there's apparently not enough Horde period...
VardaValar1: More Alliance than Horde
ArPharazonV: Alliance heavily outnumbers Horde on most servers
VardaValar1: It is fun to try to do questing or other gaming with Horde, since we can't talk to each other, but we can emote or be obviously helping
VardaValar1: We take turns hitting the baddies first to tag them
ArPharazonV: when Horde fights creeps, I usually watch...
VardaValar1: It can be quite challenging
ArPharazonV: I went to Bael Modan yesterday, in the Barrens... a dwarven base
ArPharazonV: walked around watching horde characters attack dwarves
ArPharazonV: cheering for the dwarves, etc...
ArPharazonV: too bad I can't heal em ;-)
VardaValar1: If you did, you would go PvP
ArPharazonV: true...
Eonwe Valar: Then the Horde might find a new target :}
Shaggyjoe: okay question about stealth how does it work?
ArPharazonV: but when the average horde-player in there is about lvl 23... and you're 45...
VardaValar1: Eonwe's paladin and my priest ran into that : )
ArPharazonV: pvp isn't much of a problem
Eonwe Valar: Does get too close to a guy from the front and you should be pretty ok
VardaValar1: Stealth from the back is best
Eonwe Valar: Does = Don'
Eonwe Valar: t
VardaValar1: You can pickpocket
VardaValar1: You are popular for unlocking chests
Eonwe Valar: Night Elves get a bonus to Stealth since they also have Shadowmeld
ArPharazonV: I love stealth/prowl with my druid...
Shaggyjoe: you cant run while stealthed right?
Eonwe Valar: So Night Elves ar ebest for Rogues and Druids if Stealth is going to be your forte
VardaValar1: Yes, you can move stealthed as a rogue
Shaggyjoe: NE rouge would be my choice anyway.
VardaValar1: or druid
Eonwe Valar: You can't move while Shadowmelded, but Stealth you move, only ata reduced speed
ArPharazonV: NE is the only Alliance-race that can be druid...
Shaggyjoe: walk, but not run?
VardaValar1: rouge is a reddish powder for cheeks ;-)
ArPharazonV: aye, speed is reduced
Shaggyjoe: ack rogue
Shaggyjoe: : P
Shaggyjoe: fingers were going to fast.
ArPharazonV: to 60%/65%/70% in prowl
VardaValar1: Gives funny results. We all do it
ArPharazonV: not sure about the rogue
Eonwe Valar: But you get a talanet that lets you increase your movement speed whiel stealthed. You can get pretty close to 100% of your normal speed.
VardaValar1: Running just doesn't look all that sneaky
Shaggyjoe: at the expense of not having other talents to a higher level right.
Eonwe Valar: *talent, while
VardaValar1: You pick what you want to put your abilities in
VardaValar1: There are many builds of everything : )
Eonwe Valar: unless you're going to fully spec in one talent tree, you can usually afford to have a few points in another
Shaggyjoe: aye
Eonwe Valar: I've got an 11/9/31 setup in my Paladin's Talent trees
VardaValar1: Somehow reminds me of Diablo
ArPharazonV: I was considering to fully spec in feral combat...
Eonwe Valar: or will once I reach 60
ArPharazonV: but I've placed 1 point in Balance to get Nature's Grasp, and I have been recommended to place a few points in Mark of the Wild...
ArPharazonV: the rest: all feral
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I recommend boosting Mark of the Wild as far as you can
ArPharazonV: ok...
ArPharazonV: so that's another 5 points
Eonwe Valar: Makes it nice for groups.
ArPharazonV: 51 points in total, right?
Eonwe Valar: and for you since it'll boost all your stats and resistances.
ArPharazonV: that would make my setup... 1/45/5...
Eonwe Valar: aye, 51 total point
ArPharazonV: and considering feral combat is the most underpowered talent-tree of the 3, this will be interesting
VardaValar1: You guys look talked out : )
VardaValar1: nope
Eonwe Valar: unfortunately Paladin auras don't stack with other resists
VardaValar1: Incredible though it may seem, we still have folk playing all the old games
VardaValar1: Not everyone is into pay for play gaming
VardaValar1: Some of us have one comp that can play a MMORPG, but some old ones that can't
VardaValar1: So Bnet Valar channel can still find us sometimes : )
VardaValar1: Diablo's lobby really hurt that
VardaValar1: Tolkien:
ArPharazonV: it's time we get another English RP-server in Europe...
ArPharazonV: queue of 145 this evening
ArPharazonV: I've heard about queues of 500
ArPharazonV: but ok, get on with Tolkien :-)
VardaValar1: who? :-)

VardaValar1 (18:22:24): Tolkien:
VardaValar1: We named our guild after the Valar
VardaValar1: What do we know about the Valar that would make anyone do that? Are we just arrogant? :-)
ArPharazonV: ...yes?
VardaValar1: That was a quick discussion ;-)
ArPharazonV: I find it hard to fully grasp the question...
ArPharazonV: what do we know about the Valar that would make anyone name their guild after them?
VardaValar1: That works
ArPharazonV: well, they're... good, for the most part... powerful... know much about the world...
VardaValar1: Why?
VardaValar1: Why are they that way?
ArPharazonV: because they were before the world
ArPharazonV: and had each part in its making
ArPharazonV: the primary spawn (excuse the wording) of Iluvatar's thoughts
VardaValar1: They helped each other make a world that they loved once they saw the vision, the idea of it
VardaValar1: They knew the others who would come from Eru, their brothers, would come from that world
VardaValar1: They tried to make something good for them to come into, for them to interact with
VardaValar1: For them to help build
VardaValar1: It would take all of them together to finally make Arda as Eru wanted
VardaValar1: Manwe alone could not do it, for instance
VardaValar1: The idea of fellowship is all through everything : )
ArPharazonV: they know of themselves that they can only do part, therefore they join together to create the whole
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: They need each other
ArPharazonV: and are needed by each other
Shaggyjoe: Because the average reader wouldnt know right off the bat about the Valar, it takes someone who has studied tolkiens works, and his world a little more in depth to understand who or what the Valar are or is.
VardaValar1: Aye, Gelmir
Shaggyjoe: in that.
Shaggyjoe: we are more than the average fan.
Shaggyjoe: thats the way I see it.
ArPharazonV: heh.. I remember the first time I read about the first age and the Valar...
VardaValar1: Right
ArPharazonV: it was in the downloaded manual from some Lotr-game
ArPharazonV: Eru, Valar, Maiar... all was new to me ;-)
ArPharazonV: a very very brief summary of the first two ages
Shaggyjoe: I still cant find my copy of the sil.
VardaValar1: Sil Lite
ArPharazonV: but it was my first glimpse into the world before the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings ;-)
Shaggyjoe: I've gotta go buy a new one. : \
VardaValar1: Good plan
VardaValar1: My second copy is not quite confetti yet
Shaggyjoe: Oh! I was digging through this antique store in no where's ville alabama and I ran across this OLD copy of the lotr.
VardaValar1: and it became Somewheresville, Ala
Shaggyjoe: once i unpack them ill get pictures so yall can see it. its really old. I mean older than the set I have I found in a good will, that was produced in 1963.
VardaValar1: We have members who are collectors, have originals. Are you about to join their number? : )
Shaggyjoe: I find it impossible not to buy .. yes. I think I might lol
VardaValar1: It would be interesting to see
VardaValar1: Such pics could be linked to our Book L:ist and Review page
Shaggyjoe: If these are indeed originals Ill be excited. I didnt take the time to research them much.
VardaValar1: Just being old is interesting
VardaValar1: Feels as if you walked into that library in Gondor
Shaggyjoe: I put them in a tuperware container and packed them with my other books.
Shaggyjoe: lol yeah
VardaValar1: Now that was a treasure chamber
ArPharazonV: or when you pick up the book of Mazarbul and most of its pages fall out...
VardaValar1: Almost equal to the Hobbits finding Saruman's food and pipeweed stash
VardaValar1: oops
VardaValar1: So did that book survive? I wonder how it could have
VardaValar1: Guess we need dwarves to unearth it
ArPharazonV: travel to Valinor, ask Gandalf... he's the last to have it
Shaggyjoe: was pipe weed tabacco correct?
VardaValar1: Aye
Shaggyjoe: darn.
VardaValar1: Pipes use tobacco
Shaggyjoe: ...
VardaValar1: It was pc in Tolkien's time : )
ArPharazonV: pc?
VardaValar1: politically correct
ArPharazonV: ah
Shaggyjoe: she was making a funny. : )
Shaggyjoe: or at least thats what I got.
VardaValar1: It was not known to be hazardous, just filthy maybe
VardaValar1: Aye, thanks Gelmir
Shaggyjoe: I wonder if marijuana exsisted in tolkiens world.
VardaValar1: Can't expect all jokes to make it
Shaggyjoe: now that would be something to research.
ArPharazonV: iles/lotr1.pdf
ArPharazonV: can you access that link?
Shaggyjoe: aye its loading.
VardaValar1: It existed in his time, not so commonly known
ArPharazonV: it's the manual in which I found my first glimpse of the First Age...
VardaValar1: I tend to avoid pdf files if possible
ArPharazonV: page 20, I think
VardaValar1: That one I might try sometime
VardaValar1: Usually use them for IRS documents : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
Shaggyjoe: eeeeeeeewww.
VardaValar1: Thus the aversion, aye : )
Eonwe Valar: Some unlearned sorts try to say that's what pipeweed was, despite Tolkien saying himself it was relative to nicotania (tobacco)
VardaValar1: I think they just want to stir things up
VardaValar1: Pipes nearly always use tobacco, so it's pretty clear
VardaValar1: Pipes tend not to be as hard on the system as cigarettes, not that I'm recommending them
Shaggyjoe: indeed.
ArPharazonV: it even made Gandalf cough...
ArPharazonV: Minas Tirith, I think
ArPharazonV: movie, of course
VardaValar1: Movie, to make it more pc
ArPharazonV: indeed :-)
VardaValar1: He would have known perfectly well how to smoke after hundreds of years
Eonwe Valar: Apparently it was big enough of a fuss for Tolkien to explain the origins of Pipweed and its smoking in the Shire Records section in FotR.
VardaValar1: I did think it was amusing that he did that in the movie
Eonwe Valar: *pipeweed
Shaggyjoe: no, he was really just toakin up before they got into a sticky situation. ;-) cause anyone knows if you get hobbits outside the shire trouble will get stirred.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: Pipweed sounds nice...
ArPharazonV: Pipweed and Merweed...
VardaValar1: Pip thinks so
VardaValar1: Our Meriadoc actually does smoke a pipe sometimes : )
ArPharazonV: tobacco or marijuana?
VardaValar1: Tobacco. geee
ArPharazonV: there's a thought... marijuana in a pipe...
Eonwe Valar: let's not go too far down this road
VardaValar1: Too far already
Eonwe Valar: Pipeweed is tobacco. Settled
ArPharazonV: I don't smoke either tobacco or marijuana, whether it's in a pipe, cigarette, or otherwise..
VardaValar1: We asked what qualities we liked in the Valar, that we would name our guild after them
VardaValar1: I don't smoke either
ArathornValar: I smoke ham every now and then :-P
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: Go Arathorn!
ArathornValar: or beef.. very tasty :-P
VardaValar1: Or turkey
VardaValar1: hey, you Hobbits!
ArPharazonV: I smoke whenever I'm on fire
Shaggyjoe: ohh.. smoked turkey is soooo good.
Shaggyjoe: although digging a pit and smoking a ham is equally as enjoyable.
ArathornValar: hard pressed to find turkeys up north :-P
Shaggyjoe: lol
Shaggyjoe: turkeys are just big chickens.
VardaValar1: Since Tolkien seems smoked too,
VardaValar1: I declare After-meeting
VardaValar1: .
ArPharazonV: hmm... was he cremated?
ArPharazonV: or simply buried?
VardaValar1: Buried
VardaValar1: His wife's tombstone said Luthien, his said Beren
Eonwe Valar: It was a play on words.
ArPharazonV: well... you can bury an urn...
Eonwe Valar: Carrying with the theme that apparently arose.
ArPharazonV: yes, yes, Eonwe... I got the play on words...
VardaValar1: Remember the good old days of Tolkien tangents? :-)
ArPharazonV: just seemed to have carried it too far for your liking
ArPharazonV: you mean like pipeweed?
VardaValar1: Wandered right off the Road : )
Eonwe Valar: The topic was moving into areas we shouldn't touch.
VardaValar1: I'll let you guys go play or chat and I'll go take care of supper
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
VardaValar1: Namarie for now
Shaggyjoe: I tend to do that.
ArPharazonV: ok then, new topic I have questions about
Eonwe Valar: Take care Varda.
Shaggyjoe: Naramrie Varda!
ArPharazonV: the themes of the Song...
VardaValar1: I'll leave it up and scroll
ArPharazonV: I have never been able to readily identify them with aspects from the later history
ArPharazonV: for example, the third theme... that the Children of Iluvatar? or just Men?
ArPharazonV: or something else?
ArPharazonV: but I'll save the subject for next week, I guess
Eonwe Valar: The Third Theme included the Children of Iluvatar, both Men and Elves.
ArPharazonV: then what was the second theme?
ArPharazonV: my first thought was: 1: Ainur, 2: Elves, 3: Men... but that, apparently, is far from the truth
Eonwe Valar: The Second Theme was as I recall (in short) an attempt to overtake Morgoth's discord, in which Manwë was a chief player.
ArPharazonV: and what did it represent in the later history?
Eonwe Valar: The Third Theme was made by Eru alone.
ArPharazonV: what did the Second Theme represent in the history of Arda?
Eonwe Valar: Off the top of my head? The constant opposition between Melkor and the Valar.
ArPharazonV: so.. the beginning of the second theme would be... the Valar themselves?
Eonwe Valar: The Valar rose up twice to deal with Melkor: Once when the Elves awoke, and once at the End of the Third Age
Eonwe Valar: Er, First Age
ArPharazonV: so the first theme is the world without interference of the Valar? that seems strange...
Eonwe Valar: Before that they contended with Melkor during the forming of the universe
Eonwe Valar: The First Theme was the creation by the Valar. Melkor's discord was introduced during this Theme.
ArPharazonV: right..
Xseanzee disco has left the room.
ArPharazonV: and the second theme was them rising against Melkor?
Eonwe Valar: The songs of each Vala was about the part of the universe they would later hold sway over.
ArPharazonV: if I recall correctly, wasn't the second theme initiated by Eru as well?
Eonwe Valar: It was initiated by Eru, aye, but it also says in the Sil that Manwë was the chief instrument in the Second Theme.
ArPharazonV: but if the Second theme was the standing up against Melkor by the Valar, with Manwe as chief instrument... does that mean Eru initiated that as well?
Eonwe Valar: ?
Eonwe Valar: Eru didn't initiate mekor's discord, if that's what you're asking.
ArPharazonV: ok, let's see if I can put it a different way
Eonwe Valar: *Melkor's
ArPharazonV: Melkor's discord was initiated by himself in the First theme, right?
Eonwe Valar: Yes
ArPharazonV: and that expressed itself in the history of Arda by his first strife against the world and the achievements of the other Valar, right?
Eonwe Valar: He wanted to take over the Song
Eonwe Valar: sounds like a nice way to wrap it up.
ArPharazonV: right
ArPharazonV: now the Second Theme
ArPharazonV: was initiated by Eru, and Manwë was the chief instrument
ArPharazonV: and it was initiated as a 'defense' against the discord created by Melkor
ArPharazonV: right?
Orodreth V has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: I would've thought offense more, but let's go with that.
ArPharazonV: well, let's make it a counter-attack...
Eonwe Valar: ok
Orodreth V: Aiya all, just woke I'm gonna go have dinner.
Eonwe Valar: hey Orodreth
Orodreth V: I'll read the log.
Eonwe Valar: bon apetit
Orodreth V: :-P
ArPharazonV: and that expressed itself by the counter-attack by the Valar in the history of Arda, right?
Eonwe Valar: ok, but I'm not quite sure the Ainulindallë can draw a 1:1 comparison so readily.
ArPharazonV: well, I'm just trying to make a bit of sense out of it...
ArPharazonV: anyway, the Third Theme
ArPharazonV: initiated and carried out by Eru
ArPharazonV: expressing itself in, among other things I presume, the awakenings of the Elves and Men
Eonwe Valar: Aye
ArPharazonV: now just as the Third Theme was initiated by Eru, so also were the awakenings brought about by Eru himself, since the Valar didn't have a hand in it, right?
Eonwe Valar: aye
ArPharazonV: ah, now we get back to my earlier question
ArPharazonV: if Eru also initiated the Second Theme, does that mean he had a direct influence leading directly to the Valar's counter-attack?
ArPharazonV: as that initiation must have had some expression in the later history as well?
Eonwe Valar: Well, Manwë consulted Eru at the end of the First Age
Eonwe Valar: The specific topic of Discussion was the Half Elven, but ther ecould've been more.
ArPharazonV: ah, ok...
ArPharazonV: but didn't this 'second theme' express itself much earlier in the First Age as well?
Eonwe Valar: ?
ArPharazonV: did Manwë consult Eru before they attacked Utumno?
Eonwe Valar: Chances are, no.
ArPharazonV: or before they attacked on an earlier point?
ArPharazonV: since I assume the attack on Utumno was also part of the Second Theme
Eonwe Valar: However, Manwë may consult Eru before Dagor Dagorath, which would lead Manwë himself to come down from Taniquetil and deal with Morgoth.
ArPharazonV: interesting... this would mean an actual reverse of the Second Theme... if you get what I mean
Eonwe Valar: not really
ArPharazonV: I thought you wouldn't... let's see if I can rephrase it...
ArPharazonV: Eru's initiation of the Second Theme took place, obviously, at the beginning of the Second Theme
ArPharazonV: so... what, in the later history, can be seen as the beginning of the expression of the Second Theme?
ArPharazonV: and did Manwë consult Eru at that point, or did Eru have some other influence at that moment?
Eonwe Valar: Well, as I said, I have a bit of trouble drawing a 1:1 correlation between the Themes and linear history.
Eonwe Valar: Most notably because of the Third Theme.
ArPharazonV: yes, ok... so that's what I meant with a 'reversal' of the Second Theme
Eonwe Valar: If we take the linear progression of the Song to represent a linear timeline, then The Valar would have no hand in history once the Children of Eru awaken.
ArPharazonV: that's true
Eonwe Valar: The Valar do have a hand in history, and in fact influence events to come in the lives of the Noldor.
ArPharazonV: hmm... so Eru's initiation of the Second Theme did not have to coincide with the 'beginning' of the second theme in the later history...
ArPharazonV: that would explain a lot
Eonwe Valar: There is only one time they laid down their guardianship, and that's when Eru's children rose against them. They couldn't bear to do anything to them, so they left Pharazon and the Numenoreans in Eru's hands.
Eonwe Valar: That also means that the Valars are working behind the scenes in some way to aid Men in the Fourth Age and beyond.
ArPharazonV: they could.. but it's not necessary :-)
ArPharazonV: by now, it could just be the Third Theme running, linear comparison or no
Eonwe Valar: Well, there has to be someone to stand against Melkro at the end, and you know Melkor's servants aren't sitting on their hands.
ArPharazonV: well, if there isn't a linear comparison, it might as well be the third theme running now, and the second theme coming back on a later date...
Eonwe Valar: After every big defeat for Melkor's servants, there's a lull, and then the wheels start turning again.
ArPharazonV: that's interesting, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: it could suggest an actual repeat of the entire Song
ArPharazonV: theme after theme showing up again
Eonwe Valar: Perhaps a good way to look at the Ainulindallë as a comparison to creation is that the Themes are actually layers.
Eonwe Valar: The First Theme introduced the setting: Ea, and all contained therein, also the Plot :Good vs Evil.
ArPharazonV: could be, could be... but what then does the end of the song introduce?
ArPharazonV: the ultimate culmination of all layers, or the actual end of the world?
ArPharazonV: or both at once?
aranfinwe has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Well, that is interesting. As I recall, Melkor did drown out the First two themes, then Eru ended the Third himself
ArPharazonV: "You have been talking to a computer! One of your friends is reading the whole conversation and laughing it up right now! GET EVEN! Have the bot talk to all your friends by visiting cyberprank(dot)com"
ArPharazonV: I wonder who it was... just had a conversation with a bot, apparently
Eonwe Valar: ok.....
VardaValar1: The first theme definitely starts with creation
VardaValar1: Then it shows how the Valar's work was being marred by Melkor.
VardaValar1: The second theme has a sound that sounds like a description of the Elves
Eonwe Valar: The Third Theme would start around the Awakening of the Elves, which means if we give roughly the same length to each Theme, Melkor pulls his last stunt, Manwë deals with him in a culmination of events, the nEru ends it all.
VardaValar1: "deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came..."
ArPharazonV: if the second theme is about the elves, what does that say about Manwë being the chief instrument?
VardaValar1: Sorry, mistype. Third theme has that part
ArPharazonV: also, I've just been re-reading the Lost Tales part one... the three themes were already present, but the capture and chaining of Melkor takes place a long time before the awakening of the Elves
ArPharazonV: is that significant in the comparison?
VardaValar1: The time of man is the part the Valar did not get to see into
Eonwe Valar: Another change in that Tale is that Manwë is there.
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: as 'chief instrument', even :-)
VardaValar1: One confusion is that these were a heap of Tolkien's notes, not really set up for final publication
VardaValar1: Early stuff
Eonwe Valar: Here we go, just because I said it and wanted a quote :
Eonwe Valar: "But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Iluvatar, and he was the Chief instrument of the second theme that Iluvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor."
TheSirG3 has entered the room.
TheSirG3: Aiya
VardaValar1: As the Lord of the Valar, anything Manwe did didn't have to be with him present
VardaValar1: Aiya Farmer!
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: I got it all to work except SigmaChat
Eonwe Valar: hey Farmer
VardaValar1: We were just talking about the three Themes of Music
TheSirG3: ah
VardaValar1: How do they correlate to Tolkien's history. Like what does it mean anyway? : )
Eonwe Valar: afk for a sec
VardaValar1: Another bit of prophecy is told while discussing the first theme
VardaValar1: It mentions the end time
Eonwe Valar: back
VardaValar1: Welcome back
Eonwe Valar: thanks
bnetValar: FarmerMaggot (SigmaChat): making sure the Bridge is working from SigmaChat (ignore)
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: While telling about the first music, it says "Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, although it has been said
VardaValar1: that a greater still shall be made
VardaValar1: before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days."
LouieKisKowsKi has entered the room.
LouieKisKowsKi has left the room.
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: as the mythology developed, it became only the Children of Men, and not the Elves, who participate in that final music
ArPharazonV: but that particular sentence was never changed
ArPharazonV: at least, that's what I read a few days ago in the Lost Tales ;-)
VardaValar1: "Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part,
ArPharazonV: which shows that all 3 themes were again present in the final musc
ArPharazonV: *music
VardaValar1: and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts th esecret fire, being well pleased."
ArPharazonV: heh... can't wait until that day ;-)
VardaValar1: Want to dig out that part in Lost Tales?
Eonwe Valar: Probably in the commentary on the Ainulindallë
ArPharazonV: hm? dig out what part?
Eonwe Valar: ArPharazonV: as the mythology developed, it became only the Children of Men, and not the Elves, who participate in that final music
VardaValar1: You just said no elves in the final song that is sung aright
Eonwe Valar: ArPharazonV: but that particular sentence was never changedArPharazonV: at least, that's what I read a few days ago in the Lost Tales ;-)
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
ArPharazonV: found it
Shaggyjoe: I'm not very studied in the music, I've been reading along, but I must depart, I have a long drive tomarrow morning, I'm Building a 250' Self Supporter in South Carolina this comming week.
VardaValar1: The Music of the Ainur?
ArPharazonV: it's a big text though, so bear with me
Eonwe Valar: Cool. What city?
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Shaggyjoe: For those of you that didn't know, I build and work on cell phone towers.
ArPharazonV: it's in the Music of the Ainur, indeed
Shaggyjoe: uhm... Rock Hill.
Eonwe Valar: ok, don't know it :}
Shaggyjoe: but I dont want to interupt anymore.
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}
Shaggyjoe: It was a pleasure talking to you all.
VardaValar1: No problem, still digging
VardaValar1: Come again!
Eonwe Valar: Glad you could make it :}
Shaggyjoe: Hopefully Ill be back by next sunday.
Shaggyjoe: and ill let yall know as soon as I get wow.
Shaggyjoe: Namarie
Shaggyjoe: and Peace
Shaggyjoe has left the room.
ArPharazonV: "Early in the text just given occurs the sentence: 'It is said that a mightier (music) far shall be woven before the seat of Iluvatar by the choirs of both
ArPharazonV: of both Ainur and the sons of Men after the Great End'; and in the concluding sentence of the text: 'Yet while the sons of Men will after tthe passing of things of a certainty join in the Second Music of the Ainur, what Iluvatar has
VardaValar1: found it, last page of commentary
ArPharazonV: what Iluvatar has devised for the Eldar beyond the world's end he has not revealed even to the Valar, and Melko has not discovered it.' Now in the first revision of the Ainulindale the first of these sentences was changed to read:
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ArPharazonV: ' the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days'; whereas the second remained, in this essential, unchanged. This remained the case right through to the final version.
ArPharazonV: It is possible that the change in the first passage was unintentional, the substitution of another common phrase, and that this was never subsequently picked up.
ArPharazonV: However, in the published work I left the two passages as they stand."
ArPharazonV: indeed, last page of commentary
VardaValar1: Doesn't the Sil sort of bypass the whole problem of the fate of the Elves that was a big deal in the Lost Tales?
ArPharazonV: guess I commented wrong about them when I mentioned it
ArPharazonV: but you still get the point
VardaValar1: The Tales had it that the way Men treated Elves decided what became of the Elves
VardaValar1: But then it seemed to have changed by the time of th eSil
ArPharazonV: oh, yes... the Elves shrank if the air was breathed by more Men than Elves.. or something like that
VardaValar1: The fate of the Elves was already set by the Valar, that they would mainly leave to Valinor
VardaValar1: If Men did not accept Elves, is more like it
ArPharazonV: yes, that too... but I'm still just at the beginning of Gilfanon's tale in my re-read :-)
VardaValar1: No incredible shrinking elves or invisible elves in the Sil
ArPharazonV: fairies :-)
VardaValar1: The idea of the fate of Elves seems to have shifted over time
ArPharazonV: kind of hard to compare the toothfairy to Galadriel or something of the sort...
VardaValar1: Aye : )
ArPharazonV: or the fairy godmother
VardaValar1: Closer
ArPharazonV: with her wings and her little wand
VardaValar1: Disney there
ArPharazonV: heheh
ArPharazonV: Cinderella I believe she's called in English?
ArPharazonV: the main character in that tale
VardaValar1: That would be the girl, aye, not the godmother
VardaValar1: A lot of variations of it world-wide
ArPharazonV: in Dutch she's called Assepoester....
VardaValar1: Ash...
VardaValar1: what is poester?
ArPharazonV: and I don't even want to know how you pronounce that in English...
ArPharazonV: I don't know
ArPharazonV: what does Cinderella mean?
VardaValar1: cleaner maybe?
Eonwe Valar: You pronounce it in English the same way it's pronounced in it's native tongue :}
VardaValar1: Cinder is burnt wood, completely burnt
ArPharazonV: well, 'poetser' can be seen as cleaner, yes
ArPharazonV: actually, Eonwe... English and Dutch use the A very differently, for example
ArPharazonV: not to mention the oe
VardaValar1: Ella means beautiful maiden
VardaValar1: "elf-beautiful"
Eonwe Valar: My point is, if you tell us the pronunciation, that's how it's going to be pronounced
VardaValar1: English has a lot of ways of using the A
ArPharazonV: I'm not even sure what vowel you use for our 'a'-sound...
Eonwe Valar: and when English runs out of uses for a regular a, we have lovely accents to get the point across
ArPharazonV: you'd have to ask Menel for that
VardaValar1: A changes sound according to the other letters around it and derivation
Eonwe Valar: is the ss like the esset in German?
ArPharazonV: esset?
VardaValar1: I'm betting asse would be asha
Eonwe Valar: german has a ss letter
Eonwe Valar: a single s is prnounced more like an english z
ArPharazonV: actually, the 'e' in asse corresponds more to 'uh'
VardaValar1: ok, more phonetically, ash-uh
ArPharazonV: and a dutch single s is not pronounced like an English z
Eonwe Valar: what about ss?
ArPharazonV: and the as in Assepoester has a completely different sound than ash
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ArPharazonV: when referring to the 'a'
VardaValar1: crash
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back
Eonwe Valar: bah, just lost my meeting scroll by hitting escape accidentally
ArPharazonV: ouch
VardaValar1: Mine is still ok
VardaValar1: I save every so often
ArPharazonV: so is mine... just saved :-)
Eonwe Valar: I usually do to. Don't know why I didn
Eonwe Valar: t save recently
VardaValar1: Makes it hard to read back over the conversation
VardaValar1: Meeting's gone three hours now
VardaValar1: Might be a good time to break : )
ArPharazonV: perhaps we can continue the discussion of the themes next week... I don't really think we're there yet
VardaValar1: The after meeting turned into a Tolkien chat, so I'm happy
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: Maybe so Phar
VardaValar1: It would help to have some more folk like Ulmo inputting for it : )
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: *Eyes currently empty WoW computer*
VardaValar1: Very unusual
ArPharazonV: have fun, Varda :-)
Eonwe Valar: Run! Hurry!
VardaValar1: No kidding!
Eonwe Valar: If you don't strike now, someone else will grab it! :}
VardaValar1: Too true : )
VardaValar1: Namarie
Eonwe Valar: hf :}
 ArPharazonV: Namarie
(20:08:01) VardaValar1 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: guess I'll check out as well :}
Eonwe Valar: Just gotta decide which character I want to play on :}
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: I'm going to bed soon
Eonwe Valar: sleep well :}
Eonwe Valar: To everyone still here, take care and have fun , good night and sleep well :}
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
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ArPharazonV (20:13:11): saved
ArPharazonV (20:21:16): sent
ArPharazonV (20:21:20): Namarie all!
(20:21:23) ArPharazonV has left the room.