Valar Guild

January 23, 2005 Meeting

5pm EST

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
IRC:, join channel #valarguild Public Chat Valar
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Transcript team: Ar-Pharazon, Menelvagor, Varda
Attending: (18)
    Aerandir/mordacil, Arathorn, Ar-Pharazon/Ar-Pharazon-V@Azeroth, Arwen, Elros/LouieKisKowsKi, Eonwe, Finarfin, Gil-galad/Xseanzeedisco, Gilraen, Grimbold, Gwaihir, Lungorthin/sauronjag, FarmerMaggot/bnetValar, Menelvagor, Olwe/FallenGlory, Thror/ChuginChub, Ulmo/HeruRasa, Varda (presiding)

Meeting Begins
Membership News
Web News 
    AIM Bridge: upgraded by Farmer Maggot to include bridging to and IRC, working on MSN. Includes real time transcript log.  
    WoW Screenshots by Arathorn
Gaming News 
    Guild Wars
    Battle for Middle-earth
    World of WarCraft trouble locating WoW DVD's for sale.
Tolkien Chat:
    Aerandir-(V)'s topic: Were Sam and/or Elrond wrong to let the person with the Ring keep it when it could have been destroyed?
     Tangents kept some relevance to the original topic. Healers tended not to kill.
       Gandalf's Ring of Fire. Healing after bearing the Ring. Going to Valinor, who, Gimli, what they did. Orcs in Valinor?
       Courtship among Elves. Elf-children: difference between them and Men, number of children, . Ear shape. Elf-marriage: betrothal, ceremony, wedded once.
       Aging in Elves. Gender roles in Elves.
[from Ar-Pharazon's transcript]
You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."
FarmerMaggotV: gimme a second -> I'll get on IRC
FarmerMaggotV: Ar-Pharazon-V@Azeroth (Bnet): Well, this is....
ArPharazonV: cool
FarmerMaggotV: the IRC end flopped off and died :-P
FarmerMaggotV: I'll restart it
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
FarmerMaggotV has entered the room.
FarmerMaggotV: Ar-Pharazon-V@Azeroth (Bnet): Pharazon! How are ya doing, buddy!
ArPharazonV: I'm very well, thank you! And you?
FarmerMaggotV: good :-), the IRC end seems to be giving me trouble.....
FarmerMaggotV: Ar-Pharazon-V@Azeroth (Bnet): Great! So, FM drafted you for this too, eh?
FarmerMaggotV: hehe
ArPharazonV: yeah... but I'm happy to do it, he seems to have good intentions
FarmerMaggotV: Ar-Pharazon-V@Azeroth (Bnet): yup, me too... it's all for the good of the Guild
FarmerMaggotV: for the general good ;-)
ArPharazonV: Hmm.... does this make me crazy? Talking to myself?
FarmerMaggotV: Ar-Pharazon-V@Azeroth (Bnet): Probably, aye
FarmerMaggotV: just keep talking hehe :-)
ArPharazonV: like looking into a mirror....
FarmerMaggotV: Ar-Pharazon-V@Azeroth (Bnet): Echo
ArPharazonV: echo
FarmerMaggotV: Ar-Pharazon-V@Azeroth (Bnet): echo
FarmerMaggotV: ribbit
ArPharazonV: echo
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
[from Menelvagor's transcript. Dropping color to make white and yellow names visible:]
(17:13:42) You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."
Menelvagor Valar (17:13:47): Aiya
VardaValar1 (17:14:03): Aiya
Menelvagor Valar (17:14:14): hmmmz
ArPharazonV (17:14:24): Aiya
VardaValar1 (17:14:26): Done inviting
Menelvagor Valar (17:14:28): just found out that for chat room names lower case doesn't apply
FarmerMaggotV (17:14:34): neither does spacing
FarmerMaggotV (17:14:46): Same applies for screennames
Menelvagor Valar (17:15:06): hehe
Chugin Chub (17:15:17): i was looking foward to geting wow but the only place that had it sold the last one right befor i got there :_(
Menelvagor Valar (17:15:19): as usual, my grand discovery ain't so grand at all :-)
VardaValar1 (17:15:22): Going to try to be quicker with the business meeting so we can do other things, like play : )
VardaValar1 (17:15:31): ouch Thror
FallenGlory (17:15:41): Oh, BTW, I have the funds for WoW
FallenGlory (17:15:44): I just can't find it
FallenGlory (17:15:45): in any stroe

VardaValar1 (17:15:46): Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
FallenGlory (17:15:47): store*
VardaValar1 (17:15:55): Might need to order?
FallenGlory (17:15:58): Probably
FallenGlory (17:16:04): It's really very aggravating
VardaValar1 (17:16:22): Member News:
Chugin Chub (17:16:22): wally world didnt have it either
VardaValar1 (17:16:42): We've had a number of people interested in joining
Eonwe Valar (17:16:52): From what I hear, there won't be any more copies of WoW sent to American stores until they get the servers squared away, but since I didn't see that posted by a Blizzard rep, only a poster on their forum, I can't vouch for it's accu
VardaValar1 (17:16:55): You might all want to help out people who want to join
Eonwe Valar (17:17:06): *accy.
VardaValar1 (17:17:20): Any other Member news?
VardaValar1 (17:17:25): Web News:
VardaValar1 (17:17:41): Updates still being worked on for the Encyc, will be going quite a while yet
VardaValar1 (17:17:45): Any other Web News?
FarmerMaggotV (17:17:52): Hm, does the bridge count?
VardaValar1 (17:17:58): The bridge counts!
VardaValar1 (17:18:02): Go ahead, Farmer!
FarmerMaggotV (17:18:12): Okay then, I've been working on the bridge again -> it bridges AIM, IRC, and
bnetValar (17:18:34): musics4me (Bnet): you can be in a specified chat room / channel in each place and you'll see allt he same conversation
bnetValar (17:18:53): FarmerMaggot (IRC): for IRC the info is: server:, channel: #valarguild
FarmerMaggotV (17:19:10): for it's USEast channel Public Chat Valar
FarmerMaggotV (17:19:17): and obviously on AIM, it's here :-)
(17:19:42) HeruRasa has entered the room.
FarmerMaggotV (17:19:47): And there's a real time log @
VardaValar1 (17:19:48): Aiya
ArPharazonV (17:19:50): Aiya
HeruRasa (17:19:58): heyas
ArPharazonV (17:20:12): good log, too bad it doesn't show people entering and leaving...
VardaValar1 (17:20:16): That is a great job, Farmer
ArPharazonV (17:20:23): or we'd have no use for transcripts :-)
FarmerMaggotV (17:20:25): I'm planning on working on entering / leaving this week
VardaValar1 (17:20:49): Just a different way to handle transcripts
ArPharazonV (17:21:04): there goes our weekly email, Varda ;-)
VardaValar1 (17:21:26): We'll see. Backup is always a good idea
FarmerMaggotV (17:21:39): Does anyone have any interest in me adding MSN to the bridge?
ArPharazonV (17:21:51): was gonna suggest that very thing...
ArPharazonV (17:21:57): but I don't use MSN that much anymore
ArPharazonV (17:22:06): certainly not for Guild communication
VardaValar1 (17:22:28): We have some members who use MSN
VardaValar1 (17:22:35): They tend not to be here in AIM : )
ArPharazonV (17:22:39): but there are certainly others who don't agree with me, aye
FarmerMaggotV (17:23:14): ok, I'll see what I can do -> the MSN stuff seems a bit more complex than AIM, IRC, Bnet
VardaValar1 (17:23:16): Great job, Farmer. He and Phar were testing it earlier
FarmerMaggotV (17:23:22): thanks :-D
ArPharazonV (17:23:28): like talking into a mirror...
ArPharazonV (17:23:49): and the mirror responding :-)
VardaValar1 (17:24:04): That should helps some folk who said they don't come to meetings because they aren't on Bnet. Some also who have trouble entering AIM for various reasons
VardaValar1 (17:25:03): Any other Web News?
VardaValar1 (17:25:20): Eonwe?

VardaValar1 (17:25:53): Gaming News:
VardaValar1 (17:26:37): D2X is still going. We still have folk who don't do pay for play
VardaValar1 (17:26:41): SC/BW also
VardaValar1 (17:26:49): Several into Guild Wars
VardaValar1 (17:26:55): and Battle for Middle-earth
VardaValar1 (17:27:19): Don't forget you can use the Games page, Forum, AIM, and email to help co-ordinate the games and have fun
VardaValar1 (17:27:35): The big news of course is World of WarCraft
VardaValar1 (17:27:48): Eonwe, our branch head there, has news for us
VardaValar1 (17:27:53): Go ahead, Eonwe : )
Eonwe Valar (17:27:58): Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar (17:28:40): Last week, we got the last two signatures needed for the Valar Guild to form in WoW.
Eonwe Valar (17:29:10): Sunday, a few of us met as we turned in the charter, and many now have the Valar Guild tag under their names :}
VardaValar1 (17:29:52): *tosses confetti*
Eonwe Valar (17:29:56): Screenshots coming as soon as I can separate separate them from my other screenshots and send them to someone who can change them to jpeg :}
FINARFIN010 (17:29:58): woot!!
ArPharazonV (17:30:17): nice
ArPharazonV (17:30:29): finally some guild-screenies...
ArPharazonV (17:30:38): and how's the tabard coming along?
FarmerMaggotV (17:30:39): I can change them into jpg
ArathornValar (17:31:36): I can change them into anything :-P
FarmerMaggotV (17:32:07): hey Arathorn -> turn them into a pizza for me, I'm hungry :-P
VardaValar1 (17:32:11): Arathorn had the Christmas screenies up
ArathornValar (17:32:25): I sent in a another gold to your bank char Eonwe last week I believe
Eonwe Valar (17:32:51): I suspect we have enough to purchase the tabard design itself, but not enough to go handing out tabards. If everyone wants to just cover their own tabards rather than have the guild fund do it,
ArathornValar (17:32:54): I have others just haven't has time to do anything with them.. been fixing computers this week
HeruRasa (17:32:56): I can send a gold now too
VardaValar1 (17:32:58): Kalasul is bank character for money
ArathornValar (17:33:14): I think ppl should be able to do that
VardaValar1 (17:33:18): We should have enough for opening the tabard
ArathornValar (17:33:28): anotehr ceremony :-D
Eonwe Valar (17:33:34): ok, but I hoped to have a bit of ceremony surrounding that eventually, make getting a tabard a bit prestigous
VardaValar1 (17:33:40): If people want to have their own tabard, and have the money, they can buy it
VardaValar1 (17:33:46): Today? : )
HeruRasa (17:33:59): oooh, today ;0
Eonwe Valar (17:34:00): if not prestigous, then at least a bit more than "yay, I bought my tabard." :}
VardaValar1 (17:34:32): Something better than working hard to get to Stormwind and then standing there a long time with no one talking?
ArathornValar (17:34:58): Have you decided on the tabard design Eonwe?
VardaValar1 (17:35:24): Eonwe has the final say on the tabard. We must trust him not to pick pink bunnies for it : )
Eonwe Valar (17:35:42): aw, why not? :}
VardaValar1 (17:35:53): Or not trust him as the case may be... ;-)
HeruRasa (17:36:40): we're stuck with him, I tried all the guild commands and stuff, and no way to remove or demote him ;-)
VardaValar1 (17:37:00): Stuck then ;-)
Eonwe Valar (17:37:11): The original choice seems best to me right now, just gotta check out that edging design. Don't want to be too rash since we've got to live with this for as far into the future as I dare see :}
VardaValar1 (17:37:32): To change it, we have to re-start the guild. Pretty drastic
VardaValar1 (17:38:35): Figured you should have the money to unlock the tabard anyway
Eonwe Valar (17:38:39): On the Charter for the Web pages:
ArathornValar (17:38:52): I like pink bunnies.. with machine guns.. KILLER bunnies :-P
Eonwe Valar (17:38:59): I found the notebook, but it's apparently not in there, so I'll have to draft a new one.
ArathornValar (17:39:25): my ex bought me boxers with those on them once.. er.. but that's another story <chortle> :-P
VardaValar1 (17:39:35): ouch, Eonwe
ArPharazonV (17:39:42): killer bunnies, eh? sounds familiar...
VardaValar1 (17:39:46): The second will be better
VardaValar1 (17:39:50): Ask Anya
GilraenV (17:39:56): no, we want the killer bunny from monty python and the holy grail
VardaValar1 (17:40:10): That one is scary alright
ArPharazonV (17:40:35): Funny bunny's Egg Hunt
VardaValar1 (17:40:38): Consider the first one your rough draft and your latest charter will be scintillating brilliance
Eonwe Valar (17:40:48): There's also a few posts mae by Ulmo on things like macros, groups, and looting.
Eonwe Valar (17:41:12): some replies on those. Feel free to check the Forum, read those, and comment.
VardaValar1 (17:41:15): Shows a lot of experience behind them
Eonwe Valar (17:42:36): That should do it for WoW news.
VardaValar1 (17:43:04): Thank you, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar (17:43:08): MP
VardaValar1 (17:43:35): Any other gaming news?
ArPharazonV (17:43:38): There's a war3 mod, a conversion, combining Starcraft and War3...
ArPharazonV (17:43:47): not quite finished, but getting there
VardaValar1 (17:43:54): Who is making it?
ArPharazonV (17:44:17): still underway, unlike other mods I've seen...
ArPharazonV (17:44:40): not by Blizzard or anything...
ArPharazonV (17:44:51): but it seems you need War3, TFT, SC, and BW for it
ArPharazonV (17:45:10): so for those who have those, like me, it's something to look forward to...
ArathornValar (17:45:16): I have a WOW question..
VardaValar1 (17:47:03): I don't see your WoW question
ArPharazonV (17:47:05): "In fact, we created a tool to automatically convert SC maps to WC3 maps, and we are already working on a perfect conversion of Lost Temple." Nice...
(17:47:07) Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
ArPharazonV (17:47:09): but ask your question
ArPharazonV (17:47:10): Aiya
ArathornValar (17:47:15): was waiting for a go ahead to ask :-)
ArPharazonV (17:47:16): my topic is done
FarmerMaggotV (17:47:19): Someone mentioned this earlier:
ArPharazonV (17:47:19): go ahead
ArathornValar (17:48:11): Do we have a specific place we are letting other players know what professions we have and the levels? ...
VardaValar1 (17:48:31): I put it on the Activity page, but just professions, as levels change too fast
ArPharazonV (17:48:31): :'( Does this have any effect for European releases?
VardaValar1 (17:48:34): Forum works too
Menelvagor Valar (17:48:37): I believe that is what our WoW page is for
ArathornValar (17:48:42): I mentioned mine in the forum but it changes all the time
VardaValar1 (17:48:45): The WoW page should have it
Eonwe Valar (17:48:54): Aye, we can do that on the WoW page.
VardaValar1 (17:48:56): Putting levels is too hard to keep up with
ArathornValar (17:49:00): but the wow page isn't upated all the time is the prob
Eonwe Valar (17:49:04): Just send it to Maglor to be put with your char info.
VardaValar1 (17:49:12): We can volunteer Maglor since he is not here
VardaValar1 (17:49:21): Just tell the professions
Eonwe Valar (17:49:37): The Trading section for the Forum is also a good place
Menelvagor Valar (17:49:38): I remember that originally, the idea was that I and Maglor would be updating that page
ArathornValar (17:49:40): ok part 2, which I posted in trade too, since we have players here.. does anyone do alchemy other than my hunter?
GwaihirValar (17:49:44): perhaps also include the type of the profession(ie. are you at artisan, etc.)
VardaValar1 (17:49:52): Yes, they do Arathorn
ArathornValar (17:49:54): I'm looking for a high level and ondering who does
ArathornValar (17:49:59): *wondering
(17:50:03) mordacil has entered the room.
VardaValar1 (17:50:06): Menel, that's great! Can you do that?
VardaValar1 (17:50:09): Aiya
mordacil (17:50:13): aiya
ArathornValar (17:50:25): that might work Gwai.. not the number level hbut the type
GwaihirValar (17:50:34): and at high ends, what style you go as well
Menelvagor Valar (17:50:44): well.... believe the WoW page is still on Geocities, so I need to get to grab Maglor first to get access to it :-)
GwaihirValar (17:50:59): (tribal/elemental/dragonscale for leatherworking... armor/weapon for blacksmithing, gnomish/goblin for engineering)
VardaValar1 (17:51:08): Email is good, since he isn't on AIM at the moment : )
ArathornValar (17:51:35): I have the password info actuallyfor his site..
VardaValar1 (17:51:37): We won't know a lot of those until we are much higher, Gwaihir
ArathornValar (17:51:50): but I don't have the version of flash he does to do the updates
VardaValar1 (17:51:52): Speaking of sites...
Menelvagor Valar (17:52:02): that's no prob
VardaValar1 (17:52:03): Arathorn has a suggestion for the screenie problems
Menelvagor Valar (17:52:17): the original idea was that he would do the flash and I would do the text stuff at any rate :-)
VardaValar1 (17:52:29): That would work well
Menelvagor Valar (17:52:43): yep
ArathornValar (17:52:48): heh that's what I did t.. thhe text stuff.. if you loko at tips and such
Menelvagor Valar (17:53:02): each a field of expertise and prevents flooding with work :-)
ArathornValar (17:53:12): those are the text files I uploaded
VardaValar1 (17:53:22): Sounds as if you three need to get together and try to update what you can, probably from raw material in the Forums
Menelvagor Valar (17:53:37): and decide who does exactly what
ArathornValar (17:53:39): yeah.. figure out who does what
VardaValar1 (17:53:44): If you want updates by email, who should receive the email? I have to forward : )_
Menelvagor Valar (17:53:50): and who is general contact for WoW page thingies
ArathornValar (17:54:05): ok.. re the snapshots that Varda mentioned..
VardaValar1 (17:54:06): Which things need cc to Eonwe
ArathornValar (17:54:10):
Menelvagor Valar (17:54:19): sorry... cc?
Menelvagor Valar (17:54:24): forward?
VardaValar1 (17:54:42): a copy
VardaValar1 (17:54:51): Sent at the same time
VardaValar1 (17:54:55): Go ahead, Arathorn : )
ArathornValar (17:55:29): that is the dir you can copy pics (TGAS) to...
VardaValar1 (17:55:34): Looking at them. Might want folders to organize
VardaValar1 (17:55:46): Like special event folders?
ArathornValar (17:55:52): and I can convert to JPEG and delete the tgas (they take up too much space)..
ArathornValar (17:56:16): the question I have is... what exactly do you want to do with them Varda, Eonwe?
ArathornValar (17:56:32): will someone make a web page or..?
VardaValar1 (17:56:34): How do we upload?
VardaValar1 (17:56:44): That is for you guys with the WoW page to work out : )
ArathornValar (17:56:58): just drag and drop them to IE after going to that site
VardaValar1 (17:56:59): You might not want them all
Menelvagor Valar (17:57:09): well...
ArathornValar (17:57:36): just realize that it will take time to upload .. and its a drain on your system just like if you sent by email
Menelvagor Valar (17:57:37): considering that the WoW page is still on Geocities, adding screenies may be too much for it, including the flash stuff
VardaValar1 (17:58:00): How about putting the screenies on another server and linking to it?
ArathornValar (17:58:07): we could keep pics on our site and just link from geocities
Menelvagor Valar (17:58:13): good idea
VardaValar1 (17:58:26): I do that with Encyc pics
Menelvagor Valar (17:58:28): maybe Arathorn can keep those pics on his space on the VG server
ArathornValar (17:58:33): Just realize that we have to let ALatar know when we start running out of room again :-D
VardaValar1 (17:58:44): Most Encyc pics are sitting on the Rolozo Tolkien page
Menelvagor Valar (17:58:46): :-D
ArathornValar (17:58:56): thats what that link is for Menel
VardaValar1 (17:58:57): Email is good. He is also on WoW with us : )
ArathornValar (17:58:58):
ArathornValar (17:59:16): that is my space on the server :-D
ArathornValar (18:00:03): then we could just link to the ones we want to keep from Geo
VardaValar1 (18:00:04): Need a way to sort through, but that is your problem : )
ArathornValar (18:00:27): with input from you and others of course :-P
Menelvagor Valar (18:00:34): that's ll be our problem, aye :-)
VardaValar1 (18:00:45): Fun thing about the guild, everyone gets to input about everything : )
ArathornValar (18:00:56): netter not let us go wild.. we'll have bels and whistles all over <snortle>
ArathornValar (18:01:07): *better
VardaValar1 (18:01:07): Don't forget to mention when you like something too, guys : )
FINARFIN010 (18:01:11): what's input?
ArPharazonV (18:01:34): I like Tolkien!
VardaValar1 (18:01:38): Give suggestions and comments as your input. In this case screenies also
ArathornValar (18:01:42): comments, suggestions
VardaValar1 (18:01:46): Text also
FINARFIN010 (18:02:02): i like people who like tolkitn
VardaValar1 (18:02:06): Talk to those trying to put up the stuff in your and the guild's behalf
ArathornValar (18:02:10): anything you don't like.. tell Maglor.. his fault (since he's not here <ha!>)
ArPharazonV (18:02:19): I like people who like people who like Tolkien...
VardaValar1 (18:02:28): I like this group : )
VardaValar1 (18:02:45): Any further web news?
FINARFIN010 (18:02:46): i like people who like people who like people who like tolkien
FINARFIN010 (18:02:56): hehe
ArPharazonV (18:03:01): and I like you for it :-)
VardaValar1 (18:03:07): And Finarfin will be looking for fellow D2X players in a bit : )
FINARFIN010 (18:03:14): *feeling warm all over*
FINARFIN010 (18:03:23): ok
VardaValar1 (18:03:35): Any other business?
HeruRasa (18:03:44): you playing reg D2X or the mod?
VardaValar1 (18:03:57): Anyone trying out the bridge, Farmer?
FarmerMaggotV (18:04:09): Hm?
VardaValar1 (18:04:19): I play both. Please update your Ladder 2 info by emailing me : )
FarmerMaggotV (18:04:21): There's nobody on it as far as I can tell right now
FarmerMaggotV (18:04:29): (other than all of us AIM people :-))
VardaValar1 (18:05:20): The word has to get around
VardaValar1 (18:05:34): Brand new at the beginning of this meeting : )
FarmerMaggotV (18:06:15): Yeah, there's a few bugs and features I'll probably be working on over the week
FarmerMaggotV (18:06:43): Ex: eventually you'll be able to IM bnetvalar (on AIM) and get a list of all users on all networks
ArPharazonV (18:06:47): brb, gotta go get something....
VardaValar1 (18:06:50): We don't expect perfection the first rattle out of the box, although you get close
VardaValar1 (18:07:33): Any other news from those not afk?
ArPharazonV (18:07:59): back
VardaValar1 (18:08:05): Welcome back
ArPharazonV (18:08:12): tnx
FINARFIN010 (18:08:18): wb
ArPharazonV (18:08:28): thnx
Menelvagor Valar (18:08:39): maybe some Forum news
VardaValar1 (18:08:50): Go ahead, Menel
Menelvagor Valar (18:09:34): well, as discussed in the meeting before last, we initially changed the marketplaces (other than D2X) to be freely accessable to everyone
Menelvagor Valar (18:10:07): however, after some deliberation, (and some guest spamming the America's Army board) we decided to keep them closed
Menelvagor Valar (18:10:39): also, in addition to that, we decided to make nearly the entire board accessable only to members
FarmerMaggotV (18:10:44): hm, dinner, AFK all
Menelvagor Valar (18:10:56): note that guests can still view pretty much all of the boards
Menelvagor Valar (18:11:33): just need to be a member to post in most (meaning every non general chat board)
Menelvagor Valar (18:11:55): the Marketplaces have been passworded again
Menelvagor Valar (18:12:08): with the official Valar Guild Password
Menelvagor Valar (18:12:22): which can (of course) be requested by members via email to Varda
VardaValar1 (18:13:04): (Please pm me with your Tolkien topics)
Menelvagor Valar (18:13:11): non-Guild members can request to have a message of ...... needed or ....... offered put up in these boards to admins
Menelvagor Valar (18:13:57): and that's pretty much it
VardaValar1 (18:14:28): Thanks you Menelvagor. The amount of work put in behind the scenes to keep our Forum operating is impressive.
Menelvagor Valar (18:14:30): (except for the fact I've removed the merry xmas and happy new year messages from the fader :-))
Menelvagor Valar (18:14:54): not all that much, but thanks :-)
VardaValar1 (18:15:54): Thanks again : )
VardaValar1 (18:18:09): Anyone else?
VardaValar1 (18:20:25): The business meeting is adjourned
VardaValar1 (18:20:29): Tolkien Chat: : )
VardaValar1 (18:20:40): Aerandir has a topic. Go ahead, Mordacil
mordacil (18:20:51): were sam and/or elrond wrong to let the person with the ring keep it when it could have been destroyed? especially elrond
VardaValar1 (18:21:34): Wrong? Or was it even a possiblity that they could stop the person?
Menelvagor Valar (18:21:43): sorry for interupting, but need to know, is it possible to play different servers on a single account in WoW?
ArPharazonV (18:21:44): hmm... we spoke Elrond in that matter earlier this meeting... let's see, how to summarize it
FINARFIN010 (18:21:45): who could have destroyed it?
VardaValar1 (18:22:07): Yes, Menel
HeruRasa (18:22:25): you can have 10 chars on every server
VardaValar1 (18:22:26): You cannot talk across servers is all, so we picked Lothar to stay together
ArPharazonV (18:22:35): only he who wasn't the direct possessor could destroy the Ring perhaps....
VardaValar1 (18:22:50): The possessor would defend the Ring
mordacil (18:22:50): elrond let isildur march away with it. he knew what it was
ArPharazonV (18:22:51): of course Gollum slipped...
GwaihirValar (18:23:01): Menel, I have characters on 6 servers atm
GwaihirValar (18:23:08): so yup, definitley possible :-)
ArPharazonV (18:23:11): aye, like Frodo defended the Ring from Frodo...
VardaValar1 (18:23:12): Elrond and Cirdan both had Elven rings and were present when Isildur picked up the One Ring
ArPharazonV (18:23:16): *from Gollum
ArPharazonV (18:23:26): but Gollum got the Ring in the end, even while Frodo had it on his finger
mordacil (18:23:37): by letting one ring bearer go it caused death to thousands later
mordacil (18:24:10): no ring=no war of the ring
ArPharazonV (18:24:23): and how would they have prevented Isildur from leaving, without causing a war between men and Elves, thus causing more deaths all the same?
VardaValar1 (18:24:30): Starting with the first incident with Isildur
VardaValar1 (18:24:49): The two had to worry about betraying their Rings to Isildur
mordacil (18:25:38): gondor was more friendly towards elves then, elrond and the other elves/elf friends, would probably be able to convince the lower classes of the necessity
ArPharazonV (18:25:49): if Isildur had had it on, would the Rings reveal themselves to him?
ArPharazonV (18:26:01): being so close in distance?
FINARFIN010 (18:26:01): do you think they had the rings on
FINARFIN010 (18:26:05): !!
VardaValar1 (18:26:05): Only if Elrond and Cirdan were wearing the Rings
mordacil (18:26:19): they said somthing about it takes practice to use the one ring
VardaValar1 (18:26:24): They would not be wearing them as Sauron had just been wearing the One
FINARFIN010 (18:26:25): they were at war with Sauron who had the One Ring at the time.
mordacil (18:26:44): dominating wills and such
ArPharazonV (18:26:48): where then would they leave their Rings? Would they leave it in the care of others back home?
FINARFIN010 (18:26:56): i safe keeping
FINARFIN010 (18:27:03): maybe with cridan
VardaValar1 (18:27:21): Maybe on a chain around the neck or other attachment to their person
mordacil (18:27:23): miniature minas tirith keepsake box
VardaValar1 (18:27:25): It did not say
VardaValar1 (18:27:31): Right, mordacil ;-)
ArPharazonV (18:27:36): it is said that none but the bearers knew where the Rings were, until the end of the Third Age
GwaihirValar (18:27:47): afk dinner time
VardaValar1 (18:27:50): It was a big secret
ArPharazonV (18:27:57): btw, Gil-Galad had one, but passed it on, I think... to Cirdan or Elrond, not sure
HeruRasa (18:28:15): I always thought the One Ring had no abilities to detect or control the 3 Elven Rings
VardaValar1 (18:28:17): Gil-galad passed them to Galadriel, Cirdan, and Elrond
ArPharazonV (18:28:29): did Gil-Galad start with all of them?
VardaValar1 (18:28:30): Cirdan passed his to Gandalf when he arrived from Valinor
FINARFIN010 (18:28:31): the one ring was made to control all the rings
ArPharazonV (18:28:46): it ruled the Elven-rings, even though Sauron had no part in their making
FINARFIN010 (18:28:58): "One ring to rule them all. "
ArPharazonV (18:29:06): One ring to find them....
ArPharazonV (18:29:16): find them all
VardaValar1 (18:29:16): Sauron taught the elves how to make the rings and rigged the making so he could control all with a Master Ring
HeruRasa (18:29:25): that was Sauron's goal, not so sure he succeeded
ArPharazonV (18:30:03): because Sauron had no part in making them, they weren't as evil in nature as the others
ArPharazonV (18:30:19): but they could still be controlled by the One
mordacil (18:30:41): they sensed him when he put the one on
HeruRasa (18:30:41): I know of no evidence he ever did
VardaValar1 (18:30:58): Sauron could not control the Three because the Elves were immediately aware of him and removed the Rings
VardaValar1 (18:31:11): They did not use them when they thought the One was operating
FINARFIN010 (18:31:11): when sauron make the one ring and uttered the words on the ring the elves were aware of him and his betraile and took off their rings and kid them.
FINARFIN010 (18:31:56): well kids i am off to play a bit of dx2 hehe
mordacil (18:31:59): I guess he has to know whos will he is dominating with a ring of power
FINARFIN010 (18:32:03): namarie
VardaValar1 (18:32:08): The Elves used the Rings to make preserved areas for Imladris and Lothlorien after the One was lost
ArPharazonV (18:32:10): Namarie
HeruRasa (18:32:12): namarie
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VardaValar1 (18:32:17): Namarie, Fin
mordacil (18:32:32): did gandalf ever use his?
VardaValar1 (18:32:43): Yes
VardaValar1 (18:32:47): He had the Ring of Fire
VardaValar1 (18:33:03): He used it to inspire and probably vs the Balrog and Ringwraiths
ArPharazonV (18:33:12): the Flame of Anor....
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ArPharazonV (18:33:23): 'Wielder of the Secret Fire'
ArPharazonV (18:33:28): something like that
ArPharazonV (18:33:42): never considered it could be referencing his ring
VardaValar1 (18:34:22): A lot of the pleasure of the book are the oblique references
ArPharazonV (18:34:48): and that's where re-reading, and such meetings, are quite handy...
VardaValar1 (18:34:53): Catch something new every re-read
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(18:35:04) FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
VardaValar1 (18:35:06): Others observations are a great help
ArPharazonV (18:35:09): and there goes the Bridge
ArPharazonV (18:35:18): 'you shall not pass'
VardaValar1 (18:35:25): We've been very fortunate in our members noticing many odd things over the years
VardaValar1 (18:35:41): Feel free to write them up in articles : )
VardaValar1 (18:35:51): (My daily pestering)
(18:36:07) LouieKisKowsKi has entered the room.
LouieKisKowsKi (18:36:14): hi sorry I am so late
VardaValar1 (18:36:16): Aiye Elros : )
ArPharazonV (18:36:20): Aiya
LouieKisKowsKi (18:36:26): aiya
(18:36:29) FarmerMaggotV has entered the room.
VardaValar1 (18:36:32): We hold long meetings to let people of all schedules have a chance : )
ArPharazonV (18:36:33): wb
ArPharazonV (18:36:36): Aiyata
FarmerMaggotV (18:36:38): AIM seems to be killing my network connections :-P
VardaValar1 (18:36:49): Did we answer the Isildur question?
LouieKisKowsKi (18:36:58): what was the question?
(18:37:14) bnetValar has entered the room.
HeruRasa (18:37:21): I think we avoided it :-)
VardaValar1 (18:37:22): Why could Elrond and Cirdan allow Isildur to walk off with the One Ring
VardaValar1 (18:37:33): Why didn't they throw a spear through him?
ArPharazonV (18:37:41): why Elrond and Cirdan didn't stop him when he walked away with his precious weregild...
VardaValar1 (18:37:43): Drag the body to Mt. Doom and chunk it in?
ArPharazonV (18:37:53): because the other Men wouldn't like that?
ArPharazonV (18:38:03): Elf-Man war, anybody?
VardaValar1 (18:38:08): Elrond and Cirdan possessed two of the Three Elven Rings
VardaValar1 (18:38:18): They had to be careful not to expose the fact
LouieKisKowsKi (18:38:31): No one would have stopped Isildur in his anger at losing his father
mordacil (18:38:33): would men really be so misunderstanding?
Eonwe Valar (18:38:40): Elves were shifting into Councillor-gear, out of active participant-gear.
mordacil (18:38:42): sacrifice one for thousands?
VardaValar1 (18:39:01): Could they even have been influenced by their Rings and fear of losing the protected homes?
Eonwe Valar (18:39:09): It could also be Elrond and Cirdan realized nothing good came from forcing someone to give up something.
ArPharazonV (18:39:12): Isildur was the heir to the lordship of Arnor...
LouieKisKowsKi (18:39:18): but kknowing how important the ring was, you think the 2 elf lords would have probably killed isildur before letting him go
VardaValar1 (18:39:25): Cirdan eventually gave up his ring that protected the Havens, to Gandalf
ArPharazonV (18:39:29): would you like it if some Elf threw your King into a volcano?
mordacil (18:39:30): they had the weakness enemy that was partly responsible for causing the destruction of their homeland numenor
Eonwe Valar (18:39:48): What good was done in the First Age when The Sons of Fëanor tried to force Thingol to give up a Silmaril?
LouieKisKowsKi (18:39:56): and they may have assumed at the time that maybe removing the ring from Saurons posession would have been enough
LouieKisKowsKi (18:40:37): I wish there had been an Elrong POV chapter explaining why they didnt, isildur mad would have been worth destroying the ring
ArPharazonV (18:40:48): POV?
mordacil (18:40:54): sauron is partly responsible for the destruction of numenor
VardaValar1 (18:40:55): PoV is Point of View
mordacil (18:40:59): their home
ArPharazonV (18:41:00): ah, thnx
VardaValar1 (18:41:08): mp :-)
ArPharazonV (18:41:17): numenor was not the home of Elrond and Cirdan, though...
mordacil (18:41:23): they could kill him or an insane king
LouieKisKowsKi (18:41:32): he would have been ok
LouieKisKowsKi (18:41:41): he was only under the rings spel for a few hours tops
mordacil (18:41:54): it seems you all are concerned about elf man war
VardaValar1 (18:41:57): Long enough to make him protective and possessive
mordacil (18:42:03): men not understanding the necessity
VardaValar1 (18:42:17): all? : )
LouieKisKowsKi (18:42:22): smeagol went nuts at first too, but he would have healed
VardaValar1 (18:42:48): Sam healed, having it only a short time. No one else healed
VardaValar1 (18:43:11): If they had caught it early, Isildur might have healed
ArPharazonV (18:43:12): did Frodo not heal from the Ring, in a way?
LouieKisKowsKi (18:43:21): smeagol was said by gandalf to be better while he was awa from the ring
VardaValar1 (18:43:23): Frodo improved, never fully healed
VardaValar1 (18:43:39): Being away allowed aging and a more natural way of thought
ArPharazonV (18:43:45): he never fully healed from the Morgul-wound, and from the Shelob-sting
ArPharazonV (18:44:06): he also never healed from the Burden of the Ring... but surely he healed from its influence?
VardaValar1 (18:44:06): Frodo needed the Ring-substitute he was given
LouieKisKowsKi (18:44:14): lol varda you actually believed that?
mordacil (18:44:18): what is better? understanding men and elves vs some misunderstanding men of men + some elves vs extremely possible eternal world domination by sauron
ArPharazonV (18:44:53): hmm.... question... what would have happened to Gollum?
VardaValar1 (18:45:03): Bilbo aged and improved, but he continued to want the Ring
ArPharazonV (18:45:14): after Bilbo gave up his Ring, 'age caught up to him'
LouieKisKowsKi (18:45:15): hey was in recovery
VardaValar1 (18:45:17): Gollum had it a very long time. Without it, he went seeking it
LouieKisKowsKi (18:45:38): Bilbo was recvering, so I mean you cant expect him to be 100% ok in the rings absense
ArPharazonV (18:45:45): Gollum was surely ancient in Hobbit-years... wouldn't he have aged very very fast after the Ring was gone?
(18:45:59) Xseanzee disco has left the room.
VardaValar1 (18:46:03): Instant dust? Apparently not
LouieKisKowsKi (18:46:09): i never really remember age catching up
mordacil (18:46:14): why exactly did frodo want to go to valinor, instead of trying for a family in the shire?
VardaValar1 (18:46:15): Look it up : )
LouieKisKowsKi (18:46:19): I thought the effects lasted after the ring
mordacil (18:46:51): he did have the ring burden, but what exactly is it?
ArPharazonV (18:46:52): perhaps Frodo went to Valinor, because the Shire was no longer capable of healing him...
VardaValar1 (18:47:07): The Ring was a lot like an addiction
ArPharazonV (18:47:08): he was given invitation, taking Arwen's place
ArPharazonV (18:47:29): and he knew he'd have to take it, for his hurts would never heal in ME
LouieKisKowsKi (18:47:30): yea sam went later
LouieKisKowsKi (18:47:36): and so did legolas and gimli
ArPharazonV (18:47:46): Sam went on his own, when he was 102 years old...
VardaValar1 (18:47:50): They could have left Frodo in the Shire, a very pleasant place. They had a reason to bring Frodo to Valinor right then, and all the Ring-bearers
LouieKisKowsKi (18:47:51): the club turned out to be less exclusive than earlier pretended
ArPharazonV (18:47:59): we don't know he just dropped in a ditch and died on the way
LouieKisKowsKi (18:48:10): sam aged really well after only a short time with the ring
VardaValar1 (18:48:40): Fairly normal for a hobbit, far as I could see
LouieKisKowsKi (18:48:55): 102 was still unusually old
mordacil (18:48:56): my uncle saw lotr movies and hoped frodo would get a wife like sam in the end
ArPharazonV (18:48:57): he last saw Elanor passing the Tower Hills, and the tradition is from her that he passed to the Havens
VardaValar1 (18:49:05): Legolas went to Valinor because he was an elf with sea-longing
ArPharazonV (18:49:14): so we don't know what really happened to Sam after he left Elanor
VardaValar1 (18:49:16): Not the same situation
LouieKisKowsKi (18:49:36): he took gimli
VardaValar1 (18:49:37): JRRT was big into implying rather than stating
VardaValar1 (18:49:49): Taking Gimli was the unusual part, aye
ArPharazonV (18:49:53): as I said, his pony could have tripped, and Sam falling to his death in a ravine....
LouieKisKowsKi (18:49:56): unusual?
LouieKisKowsKi (18:50:07): I think it was an isolate dincident of a dwarf being allowed
LouieKisKowsKi (18:50:16): as a favor to a sylvan elf now less
VardaValar1 (18:50:26): Isolated incident, aye, therefore unusual
ArPharazonV (18:50:29): ah, also something... how do we know Gimli was actually allowed?
LouieKisKowsKi (18:50:47): because of the great love and friendship between them it was suffered
ArPharazonV (18:50:49): surely word of the Valar, saying 'ok, you can come', could not have passed over seas
LouieKisKowsKi (18:50:58): appendix something, trust me
VardaValar1 (18:51:04): Sure it could : )
ArPharazonV (18:51:09): perhaps they sailed to Valinor in the end, and the Valar didn't like it
ArPharazonV (18:51:19): and they sent Gimli back
Eonwe Valar (18:51:19): Because it doesn't say they set him up a room with Pharazon and his army? :}
VardaValar1 (18:51:24): Or the ship could have foundered in the ocean
ArPharazonV (18:51:32): and he landed somewhere in the South, and nobody ever heard from him again
LouieKisKowsKi (18:51:33): It waswritten from JRRT's perspective so I am sure he makes what happens, and it says they were allowed
mordacil (18:51:47): i wonder what they did in valinor...hanging with the elves and valar...
VardaValar1 (18:51:59): But even if the ship went down, Legolas would go to Mandos in Valinor, and Gimli to Aule in Valinor.
LouieKisKowsKi (18:52:06): gimli probabl became a circus performer
Eonwe Valar (18:52:16): Noldor and Dwarves wuld be found in Aulë's smithy no doubt
LouieKisKowsKi (18:52:17): omg Varda it says that they were allowed in...
VardaValar1 (18:52:26): Valinor was a huge place. They could have traveled, hunted with Orome
Eonwe Valar (18:52:38): wuld=would
ArPharazonV (18:52:44): Lego would have liked that...
VardaValar1 (18:52:54): They were apparently allowed in, yes
ArPharazonV (18:52:55): hunting Orcs, though, rather than wild beasts
ArPharazonV (18:53:06): a shame there were no Orcs roaming the wild in Valinor
mordacil (18:53:17): see the sites! to your right is the site of the ring of doom...
Eonwe Valar (18:53:27): Why, to make your conquest easier Phar? :}
VardaValar1 (18:53:46): Legolas and Gimli in Arda set up good places. Gardens, Ithilien. Glittering Caves
ArPharazonV (18:53:49): no, so Legolas and Gimli would have something more fun to do than just hunting wild beasts
VardaValar1 (18:53:55): They could do something like that in Valinor too
ArPharazonV (18:54:12): Valinor seems to have been a pretty big place
mordacil (18:54:22): wrestle with tulkas, get tired of it very quickly
Eonwe Valar (18:54:25): I'm inclined to believe that orcs wouldn't be well off in Valinor anyway, due to the way they were created and their exposure to the malevolence of Morgoth.
VardaValar1 (18:54:45): They could even go courting, since marriages were known in Valinor. Find a nice Vanya elf and a nice Khazad with a pretty beard
VardaValar1 (18:54:57): Double date
ArPharazonV (18:55:03): it's not for the Orcs, Eonwe... it's for the Elves and Dwarves wanting to hunt Orcs
LouieKisKowsKi (18:55:07): I thhought I found the flame imperishable once but it turned out I was dream walking and turned on the bathroom heat lamp
ArPharazonV (18:55:12): as I've said... 3 times now?
Eonwe Valar (18:55:19): Well, some stuff I've read in HoME seems to rule out "courting" as mortal man does it.
VardaValar1 (18:55:44): The elves in Valinor did marry, at least before the Exiles left
ArPharazonV (18:55:49): ah, yes, Gimli was the only one alive in Valinor... what would he have done?
VardaValar1 (18:55:51): What did it say in HoME?
ArPharazonV (18:55:57): tried to marry an Elf?
VardaValar1 (18:56:03): Drop by Aule's halls : )
ArPharazonV (18:56:17): weren't all those Dwarves dead?
ArPharazonV (18:56:27): fun though it must be to marry a spirit...
Eonwe Valar (18:56:30): I belive it's in Book 10, "Laws and Customs of the Eldar." The section name is right even if the book isn't.
VardaValar1 (18:56:31): Dead but alive again
VardaValar1 (18:56:42): I want that book, Eonwe : )
LouieKisKowsKi (18:56:51): what is book 10?
Eonwe Valar (18:57:12): From their description I get the impression Elves automatically know their mates the moment they meet, hence no need for dating several Elvf women before meeting the right one.
VardaValar1 (18:57:18): The dwarves claimed they would go to Aule and prepare to re-forge the new Arda the way it was supposed to be
Eonwe Valar (18:57:29): one sec and I'll give some quotes
VardaValar1 (18:57:38): That's cool. No mistakes that way
LouieKisKowsKi (18:58:10): ok I have to do some laundry
LouieKisKowsKi (18:58:10): Namarie friends
VardaValar1 (18:58:11): Might be why Legolas apparently was unmarried in Middle-earth. His mate was already in Valinor
VardaValar1 (18:58:19): Do it and come back : )
VardaValar1 (18:58:26): Namarie
ArPharazonV (18:58:30): Namarie if you're back too late for me :-)
LouieKisKowsKi (18:59:14): possible reason for sea longing too varda,...?
LouieKisKowsKi (18:59:14): bye
(18:59:14) LouieKisKowsKi has left the room.
VardaValar1 (18:59:39): Nice thought. Might have added to it
VardaValar1 (19:00:09): That was apparently due to the call of Ulmo's horns in the water, maybe the fact that water is most full of the sound of the Song
Eonwe Valar (19:00:11): "Of the Laws and Customs of the Eldar Pertaining to Marriage and other Matters Related Thereto: Together with the Statute of Finwë and Miriel and the Debate of the Valar at its Making"
HeruRasa (19:00:45): no reason at all is needed to long for and go to sea :-)
VardaValar1 (19:01:05): Spoken like the Lord of the Sea and a sailor : )
Eonwe Valar (19:01:14): Coming from the Lord of the Waters, I wonder if that comment should be suspect :}
VardaValar1 (19:02:23): Not at all. Not at all
VardaValar1 (19:03:01): The Sindar elves were of the Teleri group. Especially susceptible to music and the waters
Eonwe Valar (19:03:36): Small quote on Elf growth: " The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly...learned to speak before one year old
Eonwe Valar (19:03:39): ... same time learned to walk and dance, for wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies."
Eonwe Valar (19:04:59): So how do we know Ulmo isn't trying to get us to sail somewhere right now by making that comment? :} *looks for people edging closer to the pier*
VardaValar1 (19:05:12): *slips and hovers*
VardaValar1 (19:05:40): It would be amazing to see elf children
VardaValar1 (19:06:02): They would look so tiny and cute and be very graceful and able to communicate well
ArPharazonV (19:06:05): Elf children? Look for Lego-fanfics...
GwaihirValar (19:06:11): be almost scary...
ArPharazonV (19:06:28): Legolas as a small boy... I'm sure I still have a link somewhere
VardaValar1 (19:06:39): Ignoring Lego-fanfics, we can figure how the children would be
Eonwe Valar (19:07:02): Well, since there's apparent interest, I'll continue with that particular quote :}
VardaValar1 (19:07:02): I have, I admit, read a lot of little Legolas stories. : ) Take more than one link
VardaValar1 (19:07:03): Please do
Eonwe Valar (19:07:23): "Nonetheless, there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth;
Eonwe Valar (19:08:03): and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people.
Eonwe Valar (19:08:39): For in their early days elf-children delighted still in the world about them, and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them, and the burden of memory was still light upon them.
mordacil (19:08:43): I dont think it mentions pointy ears anywhere, just stature
VardaValar1 (19:09:22): Yes it does mention pointed ears, but they were not long : )
Eonwe Valar (19:09:28): This same watcher might indeed have wondered at the small limbs and stature of these children, judging their age by their skill in words and grace in motion.
mordacil (19:10:03): in an atricle i read on it said the only evidence was the elvish wod for leaf and ear were similar
Eonwe Valar (19:10:15): For at the end of the third year mortal children began to outstrip the Elves, hastening on to a full stature while the Elves lingered in the first spring of childhood.
VardaValar1 (19:10:43): In a letter to his American publisher, Houghton Mifflin, JRR Tolkien gave a guide for future artists concerning the looks of Bilbo Baggins.
VardaValar1 (19:11:01): ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish';
Eonwe Valar (19:11:08): Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years.
VardaValar1 (19:11:30): The quote is in our Tolkien Encyc
GwaihirValar (19:11:32): I think in the hobbit when it describes the hobbits it mentions that too Varda... but I'm not sure
Eonwe Valar (19:11:47): Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure,
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Eonwe Valar (19:12:15): and for some a hudnred years would pass before they were full-grown."
Eonwe Valar (19:12:51): Here we go, marriage :
VardaValar1 (19:13:06): Aiya Lungorthin : )
ArPharazonV (19:13:17): Aiya
Eonwe Valar (19:13:21): "The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year.
Eonwe Valar (19:13:46): They had few children, but these were very dear to them.
VardaValar1 (19:14:01): I wonder why some were mature at 50 and others took twice as long? Diff tween Noldo and Silvan for example?
mordacil (19:14:07): you say this is HoME 10?
ArPharazonV (19:14:31): aye, Morgoth's Ring
VardaValar1 (19:14:47): Not Peoples of Middle-earth?
Eonwe Valar (19:14:55): Their families, or houses, were held together by love and a deep feeling for kinship in mind and body; and the children needed little governing or teaching.
ArPharazonV (19:15:03): no, that's just about the appendices
sauronjag (19:15:07): Heyas :-)
ArPharazonV (19:15:14): and the last two stories, of course
VardaValar1 (19:15:23): Thanks
Eonwe Valar (19:15:49): There were seldom more than four children in any house, and the number grew less as ages passed; but even in days of old, while the Eldar were still few and eager to increase their kind,
Eonwe Valar (19:16:16): Fëanor was renowned as the father of seven sons, and the histories record none that surpassed him.
ArPharazonV (19:16:48): didn't Fingolfin or Finarfin have 5?
ArPharazonV (19:17:09): Finarfin, I think
Eonwe Valar (19:17:13): Pardon if I miss messages, trying to get all this typed first :}
ArPharazonV (19:17:26): np... I'll shut up
VardaValar1 (19:18:00): Just type. Scroll later if you like : )
Eonwe Valar (19:19:10): "The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part.
Eonwe Valar (19:19:42): Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-Earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.
Eonwe Valar (19:20:13): Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all Eldar
Eonwe Valar (19:20:28): It took place in this way.
Eonwe Valar (19:21:27): Those who would afterwards become wedded might choose one another early in youth, even as children (and indeed this happened often in days of peace)
Eonwe Valar (19:22:21): but unless they desired soon to be married and were of fitting age, the betrothal awaited the judgement of the parents of either party."
Eonwe Valar (19:23:22): That's the part I was referring to. Anyone wish me to continue?
VardaValar1 (19:23:59): Only you know what else is there. Is it relevant? Or just plain cool?
Eonwe Valar (19:25:53): Well, the next part might contain some relevance,.. after that it's about wedding ritual and birth of elf children, along with a couple of other things.
Eonwe Valar (19:26:13): Some interesting stuff after that regarding roles of elf men and women.
Eonwe Valar (19:27:35): I'll go ahead give the next Paragraph or two.
VardaValar1 (19:27:41): Thanks
Eonwe Valar (19:27:53): and do a bit of paraphrasing if needed or desired.
mordacil (19:28:48): gotta go
Eonwe Valar (19:28:50): "In due time the betrothal was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned, and the betrothed gave silver rings one to another.
mordacil (19:28:51): namarie
ArPharazonV (19:29:02): Namarie
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Eonwe Valar (19:29:29): According to the laws of the Eldar this betrothal was bound then to stand for one year at least, and it often stood for longer.
VardaValar1 (19:29:30): I've heard that tale of the Elvish word for leaf and ear being similar. Do they ever say what the words are?
VardaValar1 (19:29:52): Pardon, intended for mordacil
Eonwe Valar (19:30:29): During this time it could be revoked by a public return of the rings, the rings then being molten and not again used for a betrothal.
Eonwe Valar (19:31:30): Such was the law; but the right of revoking was seldom used, for the Eldar do not err lightly in such choice. They are not easily decieved by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom
Eonwe Valar (19:31:32): swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast."
Eonwe Valar (19:32:48): About the ceremony:
Eonwe Valar (19:33:25): "After the betrothal it was the part of the betrothed to appoint the time of their wedding, when at least one year had passed.
Eonwe Valar (19:33:44): Then at a feast, again shared by the two houses, the marriage was celebrated.
Eonwe Valar (19:34:35): At the ned of the feast the betrothed stood forth, and the mother of the brider and the father of the bridegroom joined the hands of the pair and blessed them.
Eonwe Valar (19:35:17): For this blessing there was a solemn form, but no mortal has heard it; though the Eldar say that Varda was named in witness by the mother
Eonwe Valar (19:35:53): and Manwë by the father; and moreover that the name of Eru was spoken (as was seldom done at any other time).
Eonwe Valar (19:36:51): The betrothed then recieved back one from another their silver rings (and treasured them); but they gave in exchange slender rings of gold, which were worn upon the index of the right hand.
Eonwe Valar (19:37:48): Among the Noldor also it was a custom that the bride's mother should give to the bridegroom a jewel upon a chain or collar; and that the bridegroom's father should give a like gift to the bride.
Eonwe Valar (19:38:59): These gifts were sometimes given before the feast.(Thus the gift of Galadriel to Aragorn, since she was in place of Arwen's mother, was in part a bridal gift amd earnest of the wedding that was later accomplished.)
Eonwe Valar (19:39:52): On Begeting and bearing of children:
Eonwe Valar (19:41:13): "As for the begetting and bearing of children: a year passes between the begetting and the birth of an elf child, so that the days of both are the same or nearly so,
Eonwe Valar (19:41:15): and it is the day of begetting that is remembered year by year.
Eonwe Valar (19:41:33): For the most part these days come in the Spring.
Eonwe Valar (19:42:08): It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives.
Eonwe Valar (19:43:14): But this is not so. For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also.
Eonwe Valar (19:44:23): Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar,
Eonwe Valar (19:45:01): so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them;
Eonwe Valar (19:45:56): and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldallië on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.
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Eonwe Valar (19:48:26): About gender roles :
Eonwe Valar (19:49:12): "In all things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and missi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal-
VardaValar1 (19:49:45): nissi isn't it?
Eonwe Valar (19:49:57): pardon misspellings ;}
VardaValar1 (19:50:07): np, checking my memory
Eonwe Valar (19:50:44): unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children,
Eonwe Valar (19:51:08): so that invention and change is ptherwise mostly brought about by the neri.
Eonwe Valar (19:51:47): There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do,
Eonwe Valar (19:52:04): or others with which only a mis is concerned.
Eonwe Valar (19:52:11): *mis=nis
Eonwe Valar (19:53:19): There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom
Eonwe Valar (19:53:34): (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar)
Eonwe Valar (19:54:30): For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practiced by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need.
Eonwe Valar (19:55:18): And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing,
Eonwe Valar (19:56:10): and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power than went with their womanhood.
Eonwe Valar (19:57:30): Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals.
Eonwe Valar (19:58:10): On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.
VardaValar1 (19:58:42): Even hunting
HeruRasa (19:59:08): going to get going and play some WoW, see all later, namarie
VardaValar1 (19:59:15): Namarie, Ulmo!
Eonwe Valar (19:59:20): As for other matters, we may speak of the customs of the Noldor (of whom most is known in Middle-Earth).
VardaValar1 (19:59:25): Transcript being saved : )
ArPharazonV (19:59:39): Namarie
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Eonwe Valar (20:00:03): Among the Noldor it may be seen that the making of bread is done mostly by women; and the making of lembas is by ancient law reserved to them.
Eonwe Valar (20:00:22): yet the cooking and preparing of other food is generally a task and pleasure of men.
Eonwe Valar (20:01:23): The nissi are more often skilled in the tending of fields and gardens, in playing upon instruments of music, and in the spinning, weaving, fashioning, and adornment of all threads and cloths;
Eonwe Valar (20:02:11): and in matters of lore they love most the histories of the Eldar and of the houses of the Noldor; and all matters of the kinship and decent are held by them in memory.
Eonwe Valar (20:02:47): But the neri are more skilled as smiths and wrights, as carvers of wood and stone, and as jewellers.
Eonwe Valar (20:03:27): It is they for the most part who compose musics and make the instruments, or devise new ones; they are thechief poets and students of languages and inventors of words.
Eonwe Valar (20:04:01): Many of them delight in forestry and in the lore of the wild, seeking friendship of all things that grow or live there in freedom.
ArPharazonV (20:04:23): Calion as an example ;-)
Eonwe Valar (20:04:59): But all these things, and other matters of labour and play, or of deeper knowledge concerning being and the life of the World, may at different times be pursued by any among the Noldor, be they neri or nissi."
Eonwe Valar (20:05:30): That's it for Laws and Customs, and I think I'll stop my quote there :}
VardaValar1 (20:06:00): Thank you, Eonwe : )
ArPharazonV (20:06:07): I gotta go soon, to bed....
ArPharazonV (20:06:07): and I'll just I'm experiencing quite heavy lag
VardaValar1 (20:06:09): Time for you to go play : )
Eonwe Valar (20:06:13): What can be noted a few sentences up is a perfectly legitimate reason for Elrond not killing Isildur :}
VardaValar1 (20:06:20): Healer
Eonwe Valar (20:06:28): Among other interesting things throughout :}
VardaValar1 (20:06:30): Not in his nature
ArPharazonV (20:06:43): could have summoned a few Elves to do it...
ArPharazonV (20:07:03): but anyway, I noticed the wedding-rings were carried on the index-fingers
VardaValar1 (20:07:04): Cirdan too
FarmerMaggotV (20:07:14): wow, 3 hours and counting :-)
VardaValar1 (20:07:21): Didn't mention where they wore the engagement rings
Eonwe Valar (20:07:58): This has been a oresentation by TBS: the Tolkien Broadcasting Station :}
VardaValar1 (20:07:59): but since they were replaced, maybe the same finger
Eonwe Valar (20:08:05): *presentation even
VardaValar1 (20:08:07): Well broadcast!
VardaValar1 (20:08:22): We now return you to your normal programming. Try not to groan too loudly
FarmerMaggotV (20:08:23): The Creation of the Universe was brought to you by Texas Instruments. :-D
ArPharazonV (20:08:51): I believe in our history, the rings were first carried on the fourth finger, because they thought a vain (sp?) ran from the finger straight to the heart
Eonwe Valar (20:09:03): vein :}
ArPharazonV (20:09:12): if in this case it ran from the index-finger to the heart...
ArPharazonV (20:09:17): ...thank you...
Eonwe Valar (20:09:27): mp :}
Menelvagor Valar (20:09:37): well, off to bed I go
Menelvagor Valar (20:09:40): Namarie everyone
FarmerMaggotV (20:09:43): Namarie!
ArPharazonV (20:09:47): would Frodo have been corrupted earlier if he had worn it on the index-finger instead of the middle finger? ;-)
ArPharazonV (20:09:47): Namarie