Valar Guild

December 4, 2005 Meeting

5pm ESDT (GMT -5)

AIM: Valar Guild
IRC:, join channel #valarguild. Public Chat Valar
Sigma Chat: click on  Type in your guild name as the user name.
Say a greeting when you enter on any of these platforms so we'll know you're there!
Bridging program by Farmer Maggot-(V)
Back to News
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon-(Valar)
and Varda-(Valar)

Attending list and who belongs to that odd AIM name anyway?  :)  (15)
    Members: ArPharazonV, Arwen V1, Elros-(V) (came by after the meeting), Eonwe Valar, FladrifV, Gil-galad-(V)/Xseanzee disco, GilraenV, FarmerMaggot-(V)/LSPrefersCarbon, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth-(V)/Oessala, Ugluk of Old, VardaValar1 (presiding)
    Guests: the loser emu, Srekal86, StlFan2k4 (guild-friend)

Meeting Begins
    Turgon-(TV) is now Turgon-(V)
    Ugluk-(V)'s birthday is tomorrow
    2006 Member List
    Encyc: Art, Stories
    Chat Support
    WoW: Europe
    WoW: Lothar
    Ar-Pharazon: The Valar of Time, from BoLT 1
    Ar-Pharazon: Tower of Pearl
    Srekal/Hyarion: What if Isildur and Elrond had fought at the Cracks of Doom and if Isildur might have tried to become more powerful and if Sauron would have just killed him and took the ring or not?
    Joke: Magni Bronzebeard and the Trolls
    How to reach Srekal/Hyarion's IRC Tolkien group

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1: Aiya Pharazon :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: just thought I'd be early for a change :-)
VardaValar1: yay : )
ArPharazonV: wasn't busy raiding or anything tonight, just a bit of farming in Tyr's... decided that I should finally start focusing on my epic ram ;-)
VardaValar1: cool
ArPharazonV: I hear that's a rare sight, an elf on a ram...
VardaValar1: It is
ArPharazonV: and I think I found the weapon of my dreams... em=20580
ArPharazonV: well, discovered it, not actually acquired it
FarmerMaggotV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Man, what a hammer. Thor might like it : )
VardaValar1: Aiya Farmer!
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Sauron says he wants it on his bear form : )
ArPharazonV: just a shame it drops from those 4 dragons... perhaps our raidalliance should consider starting to take those things down :-)
ArPharazonV: I'd like it for both forms, actually, the strength is great for cat
FarmerMaggotV: was going to demo my progress, but it seems to have hung =P
ArPharazonV: and the attackpower of course :-)
LSPrefersCarbon has entered the room.
FarmerMaggotV: woo, see my progress?
LSPrefersCarbon: FarmerMaggotV said woo, see my progress?, but I disagree.
VardaValar1: Hail
LSPrefersCarbon: VardaValar1 said Hail, but I disagree.
FarmerMaggotV: almost complete chat support =)
LSPrefersCarbon: FarmerMaggotV said almost complete chat support =), but I disagree.
FarmerMaggotV: !stfu
LSPrefersCarbon has left the room.
VardaValar1: That is your grumpy program? : )
ArPharazonV: enchant a bit more strength or stamina on it, and it's even better
FarmerMaggotV: heh, I just quickly threw together some testing stuff
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
GilraenV has entered the room.
Ugluk of Old has entered the room.
FladrifV has entered the room.
FladrifV: Aiya
Ugluk of Old: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Aiya!
Arwen V1: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Aiya alls!
ArPharazonV: ok, who invited his entire list?
the loser emu has entered the room.
StlFan2k4 has entered the room.
Srekal86 has entered the room.
Oessala has entered the room.
VardaValar1: I do it every meeting day, Phar : )
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
the loser emu: Hola, como estas?
VardaValar1: Welcome
Srekal86: allo folks
VardaValar1: Well, thank you : )
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
GilraenV: Aiya folks
Eonwe Valar: heya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya : )
VardaValar1: Welcome to another gathering of Tolkien and gaming fans : )

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership News:
VardaValar1: We have a new Tolkien-only:
VardaValar1: Turgon-(TV)
Menelvagor Valar: errr...
Menelvagor Valar: slight correction :-)
VardaValar1: He hopes to become a full member as soon as he can come in contact for a test
VardaValar1: Menel? Go ahead
Menelvagor Valar: He's now our new Turgon-V
VardaValar1: Ah hah! Are you our tester, Menel? : )
Menelvagor Valar: I tested him yesterday, I threw in a couple questions harder than usual, and he answered everyone perfectly.
VardaValar1: Yay! Thank you, Menelvagor!
Menelvagor Valar: I just haven't come around to sending the email to you yet.
ArPharazonV: oh, is that the guy who contacted me, and I sent through to Menelvagor?
Menelvagor Valar: if it is Morgray The Dark, then yes.
ArPharazonV: aye, that could very well be
VardaValar1: That is he : )
Menelvagor Valar: yes, I checked out the news for that as well :-)
VardaValar1: He sent in a drawing for the art gallery, one he had entered in the Hungarian Tolkien Competition
ArPharazonV: he contacted me a few days ago, if that was him, and asked me there were testers online
ArPharazonV: the only one I could see online was Menelvagor, so I said that
Menelvagor Valar: it was Elros who gave me a message concerning him though.
the loser emu has left the room.
VardaValar1: Handy to have a long string of us so we can handle everyone : )
ArPharazonV: hmm... I remember Elros being online at that time too, he may have contacted us both
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate, he was well-spoken, had a good understanding of english, and he even beat me at my own question once (shame on me)
VardaValar1: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: luckily there was the Encyc to look it up :-)
VardaValar1: Has he chosen a new AIM name?
Menelvagor Valar: not yet.
ArPharazonV: he'll have a hard time finding one, if Menel here hugged them all in the beginning ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: I was short on time, unfortunately, had to be quick into WoW for some Raggy wiping.
VardaValar1: Thanks, then we're not accidentally leaving him out now
VardaValar1: Thank you for doing that, Menel. I look forward to your email!
VardaValar1: Any other Membership news?
VardaValar1: Web News:
StlFan2k4: HELLO
VardaValar1: Hello : )
VardaValar1: StlFan2k4 has been with us in Lothar WoW : )
VardaValar1: Good to see you here, as well!
Eonwe Valar: Greetings

VardaValar1: Web News:
VardaValar1: 2006 list of members is being compiled.
VardaValar1: If your name has a question mark, be sure to contact me and let us know if you wish to be listed for next year
VardaValar1: Tolkien Encyclopedia:
VardaValar1: New in the Art section:
VardaValar1: Ungoliant vs Morgoth by our new Turgon-(V)
VardaValar1: Also, the words of the One Ring written out in Tengwar script
VardaValar1: transparent background, gold letters. Handy for lots of decorations online : )
VardaValar1: by Thorondor-(Valar)
Eonwe Valar: be sure not to read it aloud in Elven sanctuaries :}
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Story Section:
VardaValar1: Play by Fingon-(V):
VardaValar1: "The Tale of Beren and Luthien"
VardaValar1: I believe it has actually been used on stage, but I'm not sure
VardaValar1: Story, novel length
VardaValar1: The Battle of the Crossing of Poros
VardaValar1: is complete now.
VardaValar1: New Gaming page:
VardaValar1: Battlenet, listed on the guild index under Diablo, may have to move it a smidge
VardaValar1: Bot Commands
VardaValar1: otCommandsOro.htm
VardaValar1: If you are in our Battlenet channel, East, Valar
VardaValar1: you can use these commands to operate the Bot
VardaValar1: It includes Bot Mail and other handy goodies
VardaValar1: Does anyone else have any Web News?
Srekal86: oh I might
VardaValar1: Eonwe?
VardaValar1: ahh, Eonwe has some. Go ahead
Srekal86: I went ahead and wrote a review of Ringers: Lord of the Fans, Reviews/Ringers:_Lord_of_the_Fans
Eonwe Valar: Finals have kept me from webwork, but we do have new additions to our RP :}
ArPharazonV: (There is currently no text in this page)
Srekal86: uhoh Arwen ArPharazonV, what kind of encoding are you using?
Eonwe Valar: *Finals and class projects.
ArPharazonV: not sure, but apparently it put the link twice in the address bar, so I just deleted the second "half" and it now works fine ;-)
Srekal86: ArPharazonV, ah okay ;-)
Srekal86: That was all :-)
VardaValar1: Thanks, Hyarion : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe, go ahead
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: As I mentioned, there are new additions to our RP.
Eonwe Valar: We are now in Dale, and should any members wish to jump in, there is an opening for Noldor (Dwarves too perhaps)
ArPharazonV: and a local human blacksmith if I can convince him to join us ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Just remember to keep characters realistically set within the bounds of Tolkien's world :}
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Any Noldor joining would be meeting with me in an inn.
Eonwe Valar: I think that does it, so give the RP a read :}
Eonwe Valar: It's 4 parts long :}
Eonwe Valar: so far :}
Eonwe Valar: Back to you, Varda :}
VardaValar1: Thank you
FarmerMaggotV: I have a bit of web news
VardaValar1: Farmer, go ahead
FarmerMaggotV: I've been working on adding chat support to my AIM stuff (just a programming library I can use in projects) and it works now =)
FarmerMaggotV: so, I can do a neat project now
FarmerMaggotV: I can make it so if you run a program, and log into SigmaChat, you can see all the users in the AIM room, and talk to them like they were right on SigmaChat
FarmerMaggotV: would anybody be interested in that?
ArPharazonV: I would, but I'm usually in both, so not really necessary for me
Eonwe Valar: Anyone who uses SigmaChat would be :}
VardaValar1: This allows IM?
FarmerMaggotV: yeah, it would
VardaValar1: That would improve the Sigma program a lot!
VardaValar1: People who hate AIM should especially appreciate that : )
FarmerMaggotV: well, you'd need to run my program while you're on SigmaChat, and you'd need an AIM login
VardaValar1: Does AIM have to be running?
FarmerMaggotV: nope, just my program
VardaValar1: so, the same name you use in AIM so it has a handle to work with?
FarmerMaggotV: yeah, it needs an AIM login to work
VardaValar1: thanks, Farmer! How do we pick up your program?
FarmerMaggotV: I have to write it first, I was curious if there was interest
FarmerMaggotV: but all the hard stuff (AIM library) is done =)
VardaValar1: If you get it running, I can add it to the info on the News for meetings
VardaValar1: Congrats, Farmer : )
FarmerMaggotV: thanks =)
VardaValar1: Thank you, Farmer
VardaValar1: Is there any other Web News?
GilraenV: (I'm off, folks. Namarie)
VardaValar1: Namarie, Gilraen!
GilraenV has left the room.

VardaValar1: Gaming News:
VardaValar1: Who played anything besides WoW? : )
ArPharazonV: I remember considering playing something else, but not really recalling actually doing it...
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: ok then
VardaValar1: WoW Europe report.
ArPharazonV: *pokes Menelvagor*
Menelvagor Valar: pretty much the same as last week really.
Menelvagor Valar: apart from the fact that we managed a few nice Son of Flame handlings and set a new record of getting Ragnaros down to 38%
VardaValar1: : )
Menelvagor Valar: estimates are that he will fall in 2-3 weeks.
Menelvagor Valar: as for the guild most of us reside, I'll poke Phar.
Menelvagor Valar: *pokes Phar*
VardaValar1: Have you seen other Valar there?
ArPharazonV: well, Flad's still there
VardaValar1: and in here ; )
ArPharazonV: and I saw Valandile, but haven't spoken to him
VardaValar1: Need to at least say Aiya : )
ArPharazonV: heh, I suppose
ArPharazonV: but I think I was pretty preoccupied in chat and combat at the time
VardaValar1: One Aiya, that's not a lot of typing
ArPharazonV: next time I will!
VardaValar1: Throw it between fireballs, folks
VardaValar1: yay, Phar!
ArPharazonV: I don't actually group with Fladrif all that much in raiding
ArPharazonV: he usually goes to Zul'Gurub while I rarely do, and the other way around for MC Friday
VardaValar1: hi is still good : )
Menelvagor Valar: they just need to reach for the phone to say hi :P
ArPharazonV: hehe
FladrifV: I hear my name
ArPharazonV: yea, verily, here he is
ArPharazonV: give us your WoW Europe report, Flad ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: maybe we could say some other names to wake people up in here? :-)
FladrifV: I got sting dropped in zul gurrub
FladrifV: first epic
VardaValar1: Nice : )
FladrifV: and lvling my priest
ArPharazonV: what level is he now?
FladrifV: he just went 28
FladrifV: although he looks like 245
ArPharazonV: ah, 5 levels higher than my paladin... darn :-)
FladrifV: and doing quite a lot of rp stuff inside wow
VardaValar1: Is it Tolkien or WoW rp?
VardaValar1: (my priest hit 36 today)
FladrifV: casual wow rp
VardaValar1: Sounds fun
ArPharazonV: aye, I do that far too seldom...
FladrifV: gives more freedom than sticking only to one story
Menelvagor Valar: meh, phar, that your best alt, 23?
ArPharazonV: heh, yep
Menelvagor Valar: 41 rogue :P
Menelvagor Valar: 27 priest :P
Menelvagor Valar: 26 paladin :P
ArPharazonV: main 60, alts 23, 12, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 ;-)
FladrifV: mine 60 alts 28 and 16
Menelvagor Valar: oh, and loads of 7-8's
ArPharazonV: I really don't see why I should be powerlevelling my alts
Menelvagor Valar: but let's not degrade into a "I've got better" contest :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I haven't powerleveled my alts.
ArPharazonV: I had fun doing all the quests with my main, and so far I'm having fun doing all the quests with my paladin
Menelvagor Valar: the only dungeon I went with a little help was Scarlet.
Menelvagor Valar: and that only because Gib and Printa were going anyways.
VardaValar1: Thanks, guys
VardaValar1: WoW Lothar:
ArPharazonV: sure, she levels very slowly, but the change in combat-style makes very varied questings..
VardaValar1: is next
ArPharazonV: ok, go on
Menelvagor Valar: hehe, sorry, we got carried away again :-)
VardaValar1: np
VardaValar1: fun game : )
VardaValar1: WoW Lothar:
VardaValar1: We have been adding more guild-friends
VardaValar1: Some are planning to join later, after they finish reading
VardaValar1: Some not
VardaValar1: All are people we've found while gaming who are pleasant and good to game with
VardaValar1: With these extra folk, who can be in other guilds, we are collecting enough people of all levels to do quite a bit
VardaValar1: We also continue to have Valar, at least a few, on most all day
VardaValar1: The Lothar members page with levels was updated today
VardaValar1: Also, on the guild roster in 'WoW itself, in the notes
VardaValar1: we are adding what type of craft the person does
VardaValar1: This helps us know who to send what : )
VardaValar1: Our crafters can help membes quite a bit, especially speeding alternates or just for fun, such as a red swashbuckler shirt
VardaValar1: Any further gaming news?

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Ar-Pharazon has a good topic, on the Valar of Time, from BoLT 1, if you'd all like to grab your books
VardaValar1: For those who don't have BoLT, Phar is trying to come up with a short version of what happened : )
ArPharazonV: "The weaving of the Days and Months and of the Years."
VardaValar1: It's listed under The Hiding of Valinor
ArPharazonV: it basically starts as the journeys of the sun and moon are still quite irregular
ArPharazonV: when the Valar are visited by three mysterious characters, Danuin, Ranuin and Fanuin
VardaValar1: (This is the very early version of how it was handled)
ArPharazonV: they are the children of Aluin, Time, the oldest of the Ainur, who is beyond, and subject to Iluvatar
ArPharazonV: they tell the Valar that they are "men of exceeding subtle craft", and will offer their skill, not telling who they are, where they come from, or whither they go, after they were accepted and have wrought as they desire
ArPharazonV: *until after
ArPharazonV: and because of the great perplexity of that time, they were allowed to do so
ArPharazonV: and now it seems I'm mixing past tense with present tense
VardaValar1: Valar of Time confusing you? : )
ArPharazonV: anyway, they were given a room in Aule's house, where they started work
ArPharazonV: Where they did spin and weave in secret, and after 24 hours Danuin came forth, saying "Behold my handicraft!", but his hands seemed to be empty
ArPharazonV: and when the ship of the sun returned, he lay his hand on the stern, apparently putting the "rope" on it, and bid her to be sailed away to the Door of Night, as usual
ArPharazonV: but Ulmo could not draw the Sunship further, and Manwe and Ulmo and the others were afraid
ArPharazonV: but Danuin released the sunship, went from among them, and they could not find him
ArPharazonV: after 28 days, Ranuin did the same, again they could not see what was in his hands
ArPharazonV: after the Rose of Silpion came down, he set his hand on the glass, and the ship would not move far from him
ArPharazonV: and he disappeared as well, and Rana (the moon) was set free again
ArPharazonV: 13 times after it had waxed and waned, Fanuin came forth, and he bid the gods that the two ships came to Valinor together
ArPharazonV: but when this was done he begged aid of the Gods, "for", said he, "I have fashioned something of great weight that I would fain show you, yet cannot of my own strength hale it forth."
ArPharazonV: and 7 from the hall of Tulkas came with him, but could not see the thing, and Fanuin told them to stoop, and they laid hands on a mighty cable they could not see, and they staggered beneath it as they laid it upon their shoulders
ArPharazonV: and so Fanuin went to the two ships, and seemed as though he was making fast a great rope to each
ArPharazonV: and when all was done, he told Manwe that the work was done and the ships were set in the unbreakable fetters of time, "which neither ye, nor they, may ever break, nor may they escape therefrom,
ArPharazonV: albeit these fetters are invisible to all beings that Iluvatar has made; for nonetheless are they the strongest of things."
ArPharazonV: and suddenly Danuin and Ranuin joined him, and they handed Manwe what they had made
ArPharazonV: Danuin a slender cord, Ranuin a stout rope, and Fanuin his mighty cable, with each his own appropriate speech :-)
ArPharazonV: after which they explained who they were, and they vanished from Valinor
ArPharazonV: and so the Sun and Moon were set in time
ArPharazonV: and that's basically the story
VardaValar1: Thank you, Pharazon the Golden
VardaValar1: A lot changed from that original story, but it is still interesting
VardaValar1: In this very early version, the Valar felt fear, for instance
VardaValar1: Later, only Melkor felt fear, as he tied himself to his body to have power over the people of Middle-earth
Eonwe Valar: It's also interesting the Valar did not perceive the nature of their visitors.
VardaValar1: Aye. They should have known their brothers from the Song at least
VardaValar1: In the later version, Varda straightened out the times of the sun and moon
ArPharazonV: it is said they were the "children" of Aluin, as such they may not have been in existence before the Music
VardaValar1: Good point. Later, the Valar could not have children in the story line
Eonwe Valar: Even if they did not know them, their nature should've been perceived by the Valar.
VardaValar1: JRRT found a lot that he wanted to alter, but these early versions are fun still, almost like separate stories. The way myth really is in the world
ArPharazonV: aye, like the story of Huan and Tevildo, and the conclusion that that's why dogs now chase cats :-)
VardaValar1: Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2 tells the earliest notes, really fascinating to see how very much it evolved
VardaValar1: hehe - aye!
VardaValar1: Tevildo became Sauron later
ArPharazonV: there is a certain humor and innocence in the earlier versions that was lost in the later versions
ArPharazonV: although that made it more appropriate for a more varying audience, it's still a shame, I think, in some ways
VardaValar1: The Valar were more like other pantheons, more faulty in a lot of ways
VardaValar1: JRRT decided to make figures that people could look up to, something I liked
VardaValar1: Many of the old mythologies have deities that need a good spanking : )
ArPharazonV: the story of Eriol on the Lonely Isle, the cottage of lost play, the accompanying poems, all quite beautiful in their own way, a way that disappeared in the following years
VardaValar1: In the Time story, we can use those Valar names for more Valar honor names in the future
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: A number of those stories that don't conflict, we can still use as if they were in the Sil, which had to be so tightly condensed
VardaValar1: They also give lots of nice extra name versions for characters for gaming ; )
VardaValar1: When in doubt, we go with the Sil as canon
VardaValar1: But it's good to know the other versions!
ArPharazonV: I'd like to see someone base an animated movie on the Lost Tales or something... would really be different from Lotr.. too bad it was never finished
VardaValar1: It could not be finished as it was in conflict with itself and the way the story was evolving
VardaValar1: However, using our Stories section, we can use these earlier tales to help flesh out the condensed Silmarillion!
VardaValar1: The Battle of the Poros is a very short mention in the books, but Barahir made a novel from it. : )
ArPharazonV: true, but I would still have liked to see the earliest complete concepts, with the "coming forth" of the faeries from Tol Eressea, and the Isle becoming England
VardaValar1: That would be interesting
ArPharazonV: before any subsequent "evolving" took place that made completion impossible
VardaValar1: Maybe you or another here would enjoy writing that tale, or parts that could have happened during it
VardaValar1: The Stories section now shows which books the stories come from, so you guys can write tales from BoLT backgrounds if you like
ArPharazonV: hmm... that's not a bad idea, actually, though I would have put myself on a different mindset to stay in the mood, so to speak
ArPharazonV: combine notes from the two lost tales, in order to create a possible timeline for the later parts
ArPharazonV: and build a story in that
VardaValar1: That would be listed as something like a BoLT Sil cross. I show some that are LotR and Sil crosses.
VardaValar1: Listed that way
VardaValar1: You could show a timeline for your version, in one document, and which stories go where?
ArPharazonV: that would be nice indeed
ArPharazonV: I'd like to see something actually happening involving that tower of pearl there was such a fuss about in the book :-)
VardaValar1: Not everyone's read that. Could you give a short description?
ArPharazonV: oh, that will be really hard
ArPharazonV: I hardly call any of the references in the book, and it's really spread out
StlFan2k4: can anyone do SM with me
VardaValar1: ok, np
StlFan2k4: on WoW
VardaValar1: Lothar?
StlFan2k4: yes
StlFan2k4: SM and an elite quest
ArPharazonV: I recall something about a gong-warden, and a watcher who saw Earendil aproaching
VardaValar1: Sauron has my comp, but he's not on Lothar at the moment
StlFan2k4: oh =\
ArPharazonV: though that story was never really worked out
VardaValar1: We could locate the bits, then work it into a story
VardaValar1: Gondolin's fall was spread out and had multiple versions, can drive one crazy
VardaValar1: Indices really help with these things
ArPharazonV: true, but at least there was a full chapter about the fall itself, it was all pretty much worked out
ArPharazonV: that is absolutely not the case with the tower
VardaValar1: That makes it very fan fic story worthy : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: JRRT wanted us to play with it
ArPharazonV: oh, there was also a Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl... interesting
VardaValar1: There's a character to work with : )
ArPharazonV: and it seems to have been on one of the twilit isles
VardaValar1: So you could have the Sleeper awake?
VardaValar1: aye, BoLT index says the Tower of Pearl is on one of the Twilit Isles
ArPharazonV: "and the Tower of Pearl rises pale upon their most western cape; but as yet it was not built, and the Shadowy Seas stretched dark away till their uttermost shore in Eruman."
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: ah, and about the gong in the cottage of lost play: "It was the ringing of this Gong on the Shadowy Seas that awoke the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl that stands far out to west in the Twilit Isles."
VardaValar1: The Gong woke the Sleeper
VardaValar1: (Happy birthday to Ugluk! It's tomorrow!)
Ugluk of Old: hehe...Thanks
ArPharazonV: "A little light on Lindo's references to the ringing of the Gong on the Shadowy Seas and the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl will be shed when the story of Eärendel is reached at the end of the tales."
ArPharazonV: Congrats!
ArPharazonV: anyway, looks like I'll have to reread that part then ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Happy Birthday Ugluk :}
ArPharazonV: how old are ye now?
Ugluk of Old: old :-)
ArPharazonV: if you don't mind talking about it :-)
VardaValar1: Ugluk as an Orc, might be potentially immortal?
ArPharazonV: so instead of Ugluk of Old, we should be calling you Ugluk the Old from now on?
Ugluk of Old: well lets just say I've got grey hair :-)
VardaValar1: Oh please. I'm older than you
Ugluk of Old: hehe
Ugluk of Old: Ugluk the ancient?
VardaValar1: But not much gray yet. Lucky genes
VardaValar1: A rogue stripe on each side : )
Ugluk of Old: :-)
VardaValar1: Gray makes a gentleman look distinguished
Ugluk of Old: Yea...that's it :-)
VardaValar1: *watch it with the gray dye!*
Ugluk of Old: no greshin formula for this orc!
VardaValar1: Ok, Phar has us set for story material for the next hundred years
ArPharazonV: Ugluk, you wouldn't happen to be my grandmother, would you? ;-)
ArPharazonV: her birthday is today as well
Ugluk of Old: wrong sex I'm afraid :-)
VardaValar1: Happy birthday to Ar-Pharazon's Grandmother!
ArPharazonV: I'll be sure to pass it on :-D
VardaValar1: Phar is going to have to check to see if Grandma is typing on the comp right now
Ugluk of Old: but I might have met here in school....
Ugluk of Old: in the old log cabin
ArPharazonV: she doesn't have one
ArPharazonV: and she's probably sleeping right now, it's night here :-)
Ugluk of Old: and happy birthday to her as well
VardaValar1: You and Menel and Fladrif should be asleep too. ; )
ArPharazonV: true, true.. I'll be leaving soon
ArPharazonV: although knowing me, that could very well be over an hour ;-)
Ugluk of Old: I just got a birthday card making fun of the way I used to listen to music....ever heard of LP's?
VardaValar1: records, have some still
Ugluk of Old: those round plastic discs?...yes records :-)...but anyways...carry on:-)
Eonwe Valar: L....P? :}
Eonwe Valar: I kid :}
Ugluk of Old: :-)
VardaValar1: You kid
Eonwe Valar: I used to have some myself :}
Ugluk of Old: yes you kid m, me adult...old :-)
Ugluk of Old: but enough already...right :-)
VardaValar1: Eonwe is old enough to be called adult. Just a younger version : )
Ugluk of Old: :-)
Eonwe Valar: I can do all the fun stuff and some of the not-so-fun stuff too :}
ArPharazonV: technically, I'm adolescent... but will be adult in a year!
Eonwe Valar: Well, all of the not-so-fun stuff :}
ArPharazonV: now I just have to act to it...
VardaValar1: So do we, Phar ;-)
Ugluk of Old: yes:-)
Eonwe Valar: Stand up straight! Don't slouch! No chewing gum! :}
Ugluk of Old: right right
Ugluk of Old: So I didn't mean to interrupt your talk....
Eonwe Valar: Then again, chewing gum brightens your smile according to some dentists on commercials. Chew gum! :}
VardaValar1: Now that's adult. Two-hundred sides per subject
ArPharazonV: I don't like gum. I eat mints.
ArPharazonV: In masses, mostly.
Eonwe Valar: Some people could find a third side on a coin :}
Ugluk of Old: :}
VardaValar1: We did. We flipped a coin and it landed on its side, so the other person sitting to one side won. ;-)
VardaValar1: edge, I should say
Eonwe Valar: Varda is the master of wit :}
VardaValar1: My brother can take me on that one, but thanks
VardaValar1: Merry-(V)
Eonwe Valar: I've only seen his puns so far :}
Eonwe Valar: or mostly at least :}
VardaValar1: You want more? : )
Ugluk of Old: does he have more gray hair or less?
VardaValar1: He is slightly younger and his hair is more on the thinning than the graying side
Ugluk of Old: :}
VardaValar1: Srekal says he has some other guys on IRC talking Tolkien too. Want to check out one of their topics?
Eonwe Valar: Sure
VardaValar1: "well we were talking about what if isildur and elrond had fought at the cracks of doom and if isildur might have tried to become more powerful and if sauron would have just killed him and took the ring or not"
VardaValar1: That is a copy/paste
Ugluk of Old: interesting :}
Eonwe Valar: Sauron was a bit "dead" at the time, don't think he could do much :}
Eonwe Valar: If Isildur would've fought Elrond, that might've been an interesting fight.
Eonwe Valar: Elrond lived longer and should've had more practice, but Isildur did have the Ring.
ArPharazonV: I think they meant that if Isildur would have taken the Ring to be powerful and immortal, and if Sauron would have come back to kill him a few thousands years later
VardaValar1: (or should have meant)
ArPharazonV: well, technically it wasn't that far off
Eonwe Valar: That's if Isildur didn't figure out what Sauron was doing before Sauron had the chance.
ArPharazonV: I wondered what would happen if Isildur had tried to seize the power over Mordor with the Ring
ArPharazonV: would he truly become an unaging dark lord?
Eonwe Valar: Chances are Isildur would've eventually used the Ring and become a Wraith-king with great power.
VardaValar1: Or just thin and stretched?
VardaValar1: Sounds right, eventually only a wraith
ArPharazonV: the Ringwraiths were already in existence by then, right?
Eonwe Valar: At the Stone of Erech, Legolas realized why Sauron was worried about Aragorn having the Ring. How much more dangerous would Isildur have been?
VardaValar1: Black Numenoreans
ArPharazonV: he could become their leader, First of the Ten, as an unstoppable force
VardaValar1: Aragorn was greater than Isildur, I think
VardaValar1: But the Ring held a part of Sauron, and he would have reformed
Ugluk of Old: stronger character?
Eonwe Valar: Isildur's blood was straight from Numenor, so to speak.
VardaValar1: Then that 10th Ringwraith Number One would be subservient
ArPharazonV: true, but only after Sauron himself would be reformed enough to take control again
ArPharazonV: before that, Isildur could very well be the leader
ArPharazonV: or am I reading you wrong?
Eonwe Valar: No, Isildur would be a Dark Lord replacing Sauron. That is what the Wise feared would happen to any of them who took the Ring.
VardaValar1: At first, he would be like a Dark Lord
VardaValar1: But he was only human to begin with
Eonwe Valar: He has the blood of Maiar and Elves mixed in his line, however.
VardaValar1: Not enough to make him naturally immortal
Eonwe Valar: after 39 generations, it was enough to leave Aragorn with some ability.
VardaValar1: I don't think any of us are in disagreement, just have to watch the timeline
Ugluk of Old: and some reservations about taking the ring himself too
VardaValar1: Isildur or Aragorn would be powerful Dark Lords at first
Eonwe Valar: Actually, they would probably start off relatively benevolent, :}
Eonwe Valar: becoming Dark Lords as the decades wore on.
Eonwe Valar: That was Gandalf's fear for himself, that he would use it out of pity at first.
ArPharazonV: but that the Ring would gain more control over him over time, indeed
Eonwe Valar: but it would turn his good intentions to ill.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: and eventually he would fall.
VardaValar1: It's the passage of time that tells
Ugluk of Old: but he may have had stronger will power than others
ArPharazonV: and of course, as the Ring would gain more control over him, it would also start looking out to its true master
ArPharazonV: Sauron, who by then should perhaps start recovering, perhaps by the greatening power of the Ring itself
Eonwe Valar: Sauron is a patience Maia. I think if he could've gained control over Aragorn or Isildur through the Ring, he would've done it as revenge for his embarrassment by Luthien, no matter how long it took.
Eonwe Valar: *patient
VardaValar1: Aye
Ugluk of Old: sounds the One ring was made by him
VardaValar1: Sauron understood immortality and was a great general. Look what he did to *cough* Pharazon.
StlFan2k4: anyone here do SM with me
ArPharazonV: *hears name*
StlFan2k4 has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: *hears Sauron being patient and cannot imagine such a thing*
ArPharazonV: true, I must admit, I was a pretty tough nut to crack! for everyone knows I'm by nature very benevolent and righteous!
ArPharazonV: Sauron did a good job with me!
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: *Goes back to patiently watching the universe unfold, just as Varda made the Stars*
Eonwe Valar: Sauron was patient enough to let the Nazgul become Wraiths :}
Menelvagor Valar: not contradicting it, Eonwe.
Menelvagor Valar: but compared to the Stars, patience is a long, long time :-)
VardaValar1: : )
Menelvagor Valar: I can afford to wait a couple million years, I'm not so sure about Sauron :-)
ArPharazonV: you're a constellation, Menel, not much else you can do but wait and watch ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: Unless he is smart enough to start wearing Kevlar coated armor :-P

Menelvagor Valar: bah, I join the conversation, and all of a sudden it dies...
ArPharazonV: well, I gotta go
Eonwe Valar: take care Phar :}
ArPharazonV: have to get up again in seven and a half hours
Menelvagor Valar: pft.
Menelvagor Valar: 4.5
Eonwe Valar: Ooh, I just remembered a great joke I read on the WoW forums :}
ArPharazonV: well, that's your own choice, Menel
ArPharazonV: joke! I can wait for joke
VardaValar1: Sorry, was on side windows
VardaValar1: Hyarion thinks we could join the chat with 30 other people in IRC
Eonwe Valar: It's about Magni Bronzebeard and the King of a group of Trolls (don't remember which right now.)
VardaValar1: talking about the Entwives
Eonwe Valar: The king of the Trolls wants to send a gift to Magni Bronzebeard.
Eonwe Valar: So, he thinks about it, and after a while he decides to send the Dwarf King a throne made of bamboo and such, like his.
Eonwe Valar: The Trolls complete the throne and then send it to Magni, who greatly appreciates the gesture.
Eonwe Valar: Wishing to do something equally nice for the Troll King, Magni commissions a great throne to be carved of stone for the Troll King.
Eonwe Valar: Once completed, Magni sends the throne to the Troll King. However, the throne doesn't go with anything in the Troll King's hut, so he decides to stow it in his attic.
ArPharazonV: *sees disaster approaching*
Eonwe Valar: The throne sits up there in the Troll King's attic until one day it comes falling through the ceiling, squishing the Troll King.
VardaValar1: oops
Eonwe Valar: And the moral of the story is: Trolls who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones :}
ArPharazonV: hehehe
VardaValar1: hehe
Eonwe Valar: I just thought that was a great twist on the proverb :}
VardaValar1: Aye : )
ArPharazonV: indeedy
ArPharazonV: anyway, saving now
VardaValar1: one sec
Eonwe Valar: sleep well Phar :}
VardaValar1: Hyarion's info on how to reach his IRC guys
ArPharazonV: ok, will postpone saving for a few seconds then :-)
VardaValar1: if they had an irc client they could connect to and if they didnt they could use a java client like
VardaValar1: there you go. That's it
ArPharazonV: okido
ArPharazonV: saving: attempt nr 2
ArPharazonV: saved
VardaValar1: Thanks