August 7, 2005 Meeting
5pm ESDT (GMT -5)
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Valar Guild Meetingplace
join channel #valarguild. http://freenode.net/
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Bridging program by Farmer Maggot-(V)
No Bridges up, but members were available to relay.
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon-(V), Menelvagor-(Valar), and Varda-(Valar)
ArathornValar, ArPharazonV, AuSteinM-(TV)/AuSteinM,
Finwe-(V)/aranfinwe, FladrifV, Gil-galad-(V)/Xseanzee disco, GilraenV,
FarmerMaggot-(V), Menelvagor Valar (presiding), VardaValar1
RP: Lord of the Rings Online
role-play text game on the Valar Guild Forum.
European WoW's rp aka HG-rp.
Varda's topic: What does
Tolkien himself seem to think are the qualities that makes a villain a
Tangent: Frodo was not
gullible, and is the ultimate reason the Ring was destroyed.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: No bridge. Guess I'll have to try to set something up
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya! What'd I miss?
ArPharazonV: oh well, won't matter really, either of you will probably
be saving a transcript...
VardaValar1: Nothing happened yet
VardaValar1: We like several to save as we see different parts or we
ArPharazonV: I missed the very end last week ;-)
VardaValar1: Trying to get the bridge up
VardaValar1: Eonwe had that part
VardaValar1: Quilting is good :-)
VardaValar1: Can either of you reach SigmaChat?
ArPharazonV: I'm there, alone
VardaValar1: I'm going to try for Diablo's Public Chat Valar
VardaValar1: Bridge not operating
VardaValar1: I have not invited anyone yet
VardaValar1: I need about 15 minutes lead time to get it all working,
didn't have it
VardaValar1: Feel free to do invites :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
VardaValar1: Thanks for covering that end
VardaValar1: Aiya Menel
ArPharazonV: skimmed the Sellamillion again this week, read the good
parts.. and today I started Bored of the Rings again
ArPharazonV: but I won't bother you with parody-details ;-)
VardaValar1: Downloading Diablo patch
VardaValar1: Funnier while actually reading. Helps be in the mood
ArPharazonV: it also helps to know what it's based on, and that's
always the case with those 2 books
ArPharazonV: WoW today: I got a quest which forces me to get my
cooking-skill up 45 points... woot!
Menelvagor Valar: which one?
ArPharazonV: let's see.... what's it called...
Menelvagor Valar: Grand Omelet somethingy?
VardaValar1: Got into Diablo channel
ArPharazonV: it's the one from the monogrammed sash you get when you
kill that giant west of BB
Menelvagor Valar: don't know the one, and got 300 cooking
ArPharazonV: you need to make 10 barbecued buzzard wings and get a few
bottles of wine to lure his brother, and recover a cutlass
ArPharazonV: fortunately, I got the recipe for the buzzard wings some
time ago from the quest
Menelvagor Valar: then get me the buzzard wings and I'll bbq em for ya
Menelvagor Valar: I think I got that recipe from a random drop
ArPharazonV: but it's 175 cooking before I can use the recipe, and I've
only got 130....
Menelvagor Valar: lemme check quickly
ArPharazonV: so it's an excuse to train my cooking up by 45 points.. so
don't bother ;-)
ArPharazonV: also, I've started farming heavy leather today in STV....
my quest-skinning brings up only thick leather and rugged leather
nowadays, so I need to get my lw-ing to 200 asap ;-)
GilraenV has entered the room.
aranfinwe has entered the room.
FladrifV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya! Aiya!
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya :-)
FladrifV: back from vacation
ArPharazonV: I'm close to reaching 51, Flad... can you still catch up
with me? ;-)
VardaValar1: Welcome back : )
VardaValar1: They missed you in WoW, Fladrif : )
VardaValar1: You can go back and help him, so yes he can : )
AuSteinM has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: I surpassed him around lvl 12, and have been in the lead
ever since... the closest he got was right after I came back from
vacation... which was right before he left ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: tis that I hardly play my Paladin, or I'd have
surpassed you on my alt :P
ArPharazonV: probably, aye
VardaValar1: Fangorn is on the phone, pardon me if I'm quiet for a sec
FladrifV: wont have that much wow time so I will stay behind till the
ArPharazonV: I'm continuing preparations and decisions for my alt
paladin... already her background is slowly arising in my mind
VardaValar1: Then they will have to stop for you : )
VardaValar1: Phar, not everyone here plays WoW
ArPharazonV: I know, I know, not going to state it here :-)
ArPharazonV: don't worry
ArPharazonV: and when the WoW-server crashed, I went for a few hours
into warcraft 3...
VardaValar1: I don't think I'll have the bridge up today, sorry
ArPharazonV: found Orodreth in the Valar-channel, but it seems he was
VardaValar1: Try leaving him a message
ArPharazonV: left him a greeting and went on to play a few games until
Argent Dawn was back
VardaValar1: Every now and then we like to toss the chair to someone
else to train them up : )
ArPharazonV: that was... ehrm... when did the server crash, Menel?
VardaValar1: Phar, pardon me?
VardaValar1: So today, I am going to pass the chair to our Maia,
VardaValar1: Take it away, Menelvagor!
ArPharazonV: oh, ok... continue, sorry to have interrupted
Menelvagor Valar: *takes the chair from Varda and sits on it*
VardaValar1: *Sits comfortably on a cloud and watches*
Menelvagor Valar: Elen
sila lumenn omentielvo!
Menelvagor Valar: We'll start off with the usual, Membership
Menelvagor Valar: As far as I know, nothing notable has happened this
week, apart from Lalaith visiting us last week in the meeting under the
VardaValar1: Lalaith did say
she wanted to join
Menelvagor Valar: Which is good news :-)
VardaValar1: We have also talked with several people on WoW who were
interested, perhaps just for Tolkien
Menelvagor Valar: and excuse the delay, I'm also trying to get another
member from WoW Europe here.
ArPharazonV: which one?
Menelvagor Valar: Tinuvial
ArPharazonV: ah, right
Menelvagor Valar: oh!
Menelvagor Valar: as Fladrif
pointed out in pre-meeting: he's back from vacation, so, Welcome Back!
Menelvagor Valar: any other member news?
VardaValar1: Merry-(V) says hi
GilraenV: Gwai's sleeping
Menelvagor Valar: Hi Merry
VardaValar1: He's setting up his new business now, but hopes to have
more time to game later on
Menelvagor Valar: Gwai having to go on the night shift again?
Menelvagor Valar: Good luck to Merry with his new business then, what
ArPharazonV: good thing Eagles have such good vision, if he works at
VardaValar1: Photography from his plane. "The Winged Eye"
VardaValar1: Elwing and some
others of us are trying to help him with his logo. Great fun : )
Menelvagor Valar: I bet it is
VardaValar1: Sauron is at the
next computer, says hi
Menelvagor Valar: Also hi to Sauron
VardaValar1: Says no other US WoW people present there
ArPharazonV: let him fly over the Netherlands, take a picture of our
VardaValar1: Right. Paying how much? : )
ArPharazonV: what's he charging?
ArPharazonV: we could set up a special page, showing houses of the
Valarguild-members for comparison!
VardaValar1: He will be remaining in the US : )
ArPharazonV: but then again, bandwith-issues.... images.... not go well
Menelvagor Valar: hehe, indeed
ArPharazonV: ah, allrighty then.. I'm not moving my house there :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Tinuvial says she'll skip this week and drop by next
VardaValar1: Does she have AIM?
ArPharazonV: we could set her up in the buddy-list for next week
VardaValar1: What name?
Menelvagor Valar: she'll download it over the week, also pointed her
out to the page, and told her not to use any Tolkien character names
ArPharazonV: brb, food
Menelvagor Valar: I believe that's it for the membership news?
VardaValar1: That's all I have
Menelvagor Valar: okay then. Next up: Web News:
Menelvagor Valar: none from my side.
VardaValar1: On my part of your WoW page...
VardaValar1: The Lothar Players continues to be updated
VardaValar1: Arathorn is adding screenshots,
and has more of them in line
VardaValar1: Some from our Friday Guild questing
Menelvagor Valar: great!
ArPharazonV: more screenies? gotta see them...
VardaValar1: Also, the Tolkien
Encyclopedia still has contributions coming in
ArathornValar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Some art and stories currently being refined to
be added, but in line
VardaValar1: Ara, we were just talking about your screenshot page : )
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya, Arathorn
VardaValar1: Would you like to tell us, as we barely started to mention
ArPharazonV: ooh, a lot more instance-shots
ArathornValar: sorry just melted back from the video store O.O
Menelvagor Valar: Would you care to elaborate a little on what we can
expect on your screenie site?
ArathornValar: er what do you wish to know... go to the main link and
join the fun :-\
ArathornValar: I add pics every week.. mounds an mounds of em :-P
Menelvagor Valar: still getting all the screenies yourself, or getting
some from others as well?
VardaValar1: How do you want more to be added from us?
ArathornValar: well theyre my pics.. I guess we need a plave for people
to upload them...
VardaValar1: Want them changed to jpg and emailed?
ArathornValar: prob is init pics are 3mb+... people have to have a
means to make jpgs then uploadem to a dir we can make on the new server
ArPharazonV: just found the shots of Grim Batol... always wondered what
was in there
Menelvagor Valar: both hotmail and gmail now have huge storage
capacity, so if you use those, it wouldn't be much of a problem to send
em by email
VardaValar1: We did have a way listed a while back in the News. We can
dig it out again
ArathornValar: yes cause sending tgas is too much :-P
VardaValar1: Maybe put it on the site
VardaValar1: Warn them tga's will be returned ;-)
ArathornValar: too large :-P
ArathornValar: I can handle them BUT we're wasting time transferring
ArathornValar: In any event Im afraid I have to run .. other duties..
VardaValar1: Will you be able to talk about the rp later on?
VardaValar1: Namarie, Arathorn
ArathornValar: not tonight Im afraid.. previous engagements
VardaValar1: Thanks for letting us know!
Menelvagor Valar: any other webnews to add?
VardaValar1: Just that the Encyc A-Z
section is still under construction
ArathornValar: anyway Im off.. take care all!
ArathornValar has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Take care!
VardaValar1: I had the mechanics worked out, then accidentally deleted
how I did a part of it
VardaValar1: Will continue plugging away at it.
Menelvagor Valar: ouchie
Menelvagor Valar: guess that's it then
VardaValar1: If any web fiends/html types would like to private message
with me about it, that would be nice : )
Menelvagor Valar: spoken too soon :-X
VardaValar1: I'm done : )
GilraenV: I'm off, folks. Namarie
GilraenV has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: ok, on to Gaming News:
Menelvagor Valar: WoW
Menelvagor Valar: an oldie, but to my knowledge not been taken to the
news yet: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/insider/03/interview.html
how Bliz created Scarlet Monastery
Menelvagor Valar: also, on the dev page, there is http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/insider/03/interview.html
another raid place
Menelvagor Valar: just check the links if you're interested :-)
Menelvagor Valar: also, no notable news from our Europe Realm
VardaValar1: Except that you have some members showing interest in the
main guild or Tolkien part?
Menelvagor Valar: Anything from Lothar?
Menelvagor Valar: aye
VardaValar1: We have been doing our Friday
questing. Eonwe was making the report on that, but missed the
meeting to give it
VardaValar1: It will go up on the Forum
Menelvagor Valar: good, we'll look forward to it
VardaValar1: We have also done a good bit of questing together on other
Menelvagor Valar: Any other WoW news?
VardaValar1: Some more than on so-called guild days. ;-) Done here
ArPharazonV: you've given the same link twice, Menel
Menelvagor Valar: whoops
Menelvagor Valar: the second link should be http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/underdev/zulgurub.html
Menelvagor Valar: if there's nothing else for WoW (otherwise, PM me)
Varda had some D2 news, your floor, Varda
VardaValar1: Thank you
VardaValar1: The D2X
patch is now up
VardaValar1: It downloads quickly, at least on my comp, a P350
VardaValar1: A description of some of the fun in store is on the News
page, in a report from Galdor-(V)
VardaValar1: Yes, we do have people gaming in D2X : )
VardaValar1: That's all I have.
ArPharazonV: oh my, reading the Zul'Gurub features.... it's quite a lot
ArPharazonV: an item-set for every class, loads of quests...
Menelvagor Valar: it's all there, in the link, but thanks for telling
us, Phar :-)
ArPharazonV: but apparently, I missed that part on my first read
through the page... so there's a chance others might miss it too
Menelvagor Valar: ok, WC3: Phar, noticed any changes when
you played last week?
Menelvagor Valar: actually, that's the first and only thing I read
ArPharazonV: well, not much... I saw Oro, as I said, but he didn't reply
ArPharazonV: played a few of my favorite maps, surprised at 2 things
Menelvagor Valar: and the game itself? any patches, new maps?
ArPharazonV: 1: My skill has lessened quite a bit
ArPharazonV: 2: I never had to download a single map.... those maps
have seriously lasted for many months now
Menelvagor Valar: it will go up if you play a little more again
ArPharazonV: but I'm sure there are some new maps, if you look hard
ArPharazonV: no patches, though
Menelvagor Valar: ok, thanks for filling us in :-)
Menelvagor Valar: do we have any other gaming news?
players are still out there, but I'm not hearing about it much
VardaValar1: Brood War
Wars players are needing to get together
VardaValar1: That's all I have
Menelvagor Valar: I guess that concludes the business part.
Menelvagor Valar: Let's move to Tolkien
Menelvagor Valar: anyone have a topic?
VardaValar1: I do, if no one else has one
ArPharazonV: you were saying something about the rp?
VardaValar1: I would also like to ask everyone
to try to think of some topic or a short quote they would like to
discuss before the meeting
Menelvagor Valar: oh, thanks for bringing that up Phar
VardaValar1: Phar, have you looked at the rp lately?
Menelvagor Valar: It seems that the RP has stagnated
VardaValar1: Arathorn, Eonwe, and I also need to get with you on that
VardaValar1: It ran into a story arc problem
VardaValar1: We needed to get together to tackle it
AuSteinM has left the room.
VardaValar1: Ara and Eonwe did not make it tonight, to get with you two
VardaValar1: We will try again
Menelvagor Valar: what was the problem?
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps Phar and I could take a look at it and see if
we can come up with something
VardaValar1: Haran's new wrinkle. We are working it out
Menelvagor Valar: wrinkle...?
VardaValar1: He was hoping for everyone to react before he wrote again
ArPharazonV: oh, ok
ArPharazonV: I'll see what I can do about that tomorrow
VardaValar1: Americanism, pardon. A problem, like a wrinkle in the
sheet that won't smooth out
ArPharazonV: I was wondering what I possibly had to add at this point,
but a reaction to Haran is indeed a logical thing to tell...
VardaValar1: But Ara and I were working on it, so it will probably show
up after Phar's reaction
VardaValar1: Thanks. Would be weird if you had no reaction
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe still has to react as well
VardaValar1: He wants live talk to Ara first, I think
ArPharazonV: btw, what about that HG-rp, Menel? that for anyone to add
VardaValar1: Trying to help AuSteinM back into the chat
VardaValar1: for Tolkien
Menelvagor Valar: I'll first have to see how it develops, then I'll see
if there's anything we can do with it
ArPharazonV: High Guard
VardaValar1: The WoW Europe group
Menelvagor Valar: shall we wait for Austein to come here before getting
into that topic of yours, Varda, or want to go ahead with it?
VardaValar1: I was trying to get him in, but it says his device does
not support chat, heh
VardaValar1: and he managed to say his keyboard went strange
VardaValar1: Guess we should start
VardaValar1: My question to you folks
VardaValar1: Tolkien's villains are some of the most famous and copied
in fantasy, sf, and gaming
VardaValar1: What does Tolkien
himself seem to think are the qualities that makes a villain
a bad person? That can also help us see what he thinks a good
VardaValar1: This is not necessarily what we think, but what Tolkien
seems to be saying.
VardaValar1: Sauron, Saruman, orcs, even wargs
VardaValar1: Any other villains you can think of?
VardaValar1: Sackville-Bagginses were mildly villainous
Menelvagor Valar: Trolls
ArPharazonV: Shelob, for that matter
VardaValar1: I was thinking of LotR to keep it manageable, but we can
go for all books if you like. : )
Menelvagor Valar: although Trolls are, in fact an unknown factor, we
know too little about them to say for certain they are evil, and have
ArPharazonV: is the Balrog technically a villain? or do they fall in
the category 'minion'?
VardaValar1: Evil comes in different quantities
Menelvagor Valar: they might as well be coerced into such evil?
VardaValar1: Balrogs were seduced into evil, meaning something about it
appealed to them
VardaValar1: In their case, power attracted them
ArPharazonV: aye, indeed...
VardaValar1: Morgoth was the most powerful Vala, originally, although
he lost it
VardaValar1: Morgoth even reached the point where he was afraid to come
out and face Fingolfin's wrath
Menelvagor Valar: and after that, he didn't even dare to anymore
ArPharazonV: one would connect being a villain with having the greater
power (at least originally), but this is obviously not true for
creatures like Gollum
VardaValar1: He had to come out then or lose the respect of his forces.
VardaValar1: Or Lotho
ArPharazonV: it's just that the villains we know were not known until
they had the power to make themselves known
VardaValar1: Ioreth, both villainess and hero? Or just ordinary? : )
VardaValar1: How about Lobelia? : )
ArPharazonV: Ioreth? that the healing woman from MT?
ArPharazonV: would not call her a villainess in any way
VardaValar1: Bilbo points out the unpleasant qualities of a number of
people receiving birthday gifts.
VardaValar1: Ioreth could be considered annoying : )
Menelvagor Valar: well, it seems that, taken from Lobelia, that Tolkien
thinks there is a root of evil in every living creature, but that it is
the choices and circumstances that actually make them evil, or good
ArPharazonV: there's a huge difference between being annoying, or
having unpleasant qualities, and actual villainy
VardaValar1: So given a circumstance where the choice could make them
do something evil, they would?
ArPharazonV: *points at self*
Menelvagor Valar: look at Gollum...
VardaValar1: We can, however, guess from what Tolkien found annoying,
what direction evil might be in
Menelvagor Valar: he was affected by the power of the Ring, true, but
so was Frodo, and he stayed true to his goodness until the very last
ArPharazonV: tell me.. how do you consider Ioreth annoying?
VardaValar1: The Ring was supposed to be able to eventually destroy all
members of the Fellowship, working at their weakest points
VardaValar1: I'll let you re-read Ioreth. :-) Some characters found her
annoying, partly for running on at the mouth. : )
Menelvagor Valar: yes, but such was the malice that Sauron had poured
VardaValar1: So the Ring tried to find a weak place and exploit it
ArPharazonV: I recall her being a bit ignorant in a way, but nothing
really annoying... but meh.... matter of taste
Menelvagor Valar: aye
VardaValar1: The Fellowship members had to be able to manage their own
ArPharazonV: and everyone has a weak point, just takes longer to crack
with some people...
VardaValar1: So the Fellowship had to be chosen to take longer to crack
VardaValar1: Frodo had to be the hardest to crack
Menelvagor Valar: and everyone might be doing something evil, sometimes
for the better of it
Menelvagor Valar: the easiest example would be "little white lies"
VardaValar1: Sorry, I did not follow the sentence.
ArPharazonV: indeed, Varda... and hobbits were known for their
uncrackiness in general
VardaValar1: White lies can be gotten around, if one is creative and
ArPharazonV: well, with the obvious exception of Gollum
Menelvagor Valar: what I meant was, we consider lying is considered
evil, but sometimes good people lie if they think it would be better to
VardaValar1: Gollum had more ability to handle the Ring than most any
creature who might have otherwise
ArPharazonV: indeed, yet he started his possession of the Ring with an
VardaValar1: Good people tend to have a weak point. Fear of hurting
someone can lead to the white lie
ArPharazonV: Bilbo, on the other hand, chose to spare Gollum
VardaValar1: Thus they do wrong trying to do good. Gandalf saw how that
would work on him
Menelvagor Valar: yes, but it can also be said that evil people have
ArPharazonV: corrupting them to good?
VardaValar1: Smeagol was not a good person to start with. He used the
Ring to eavesdrop and blackmail
ArPharazonV: join the light side of the force...
Menelvagor Valar: like Sauron, he nearly returned to the good side
after the War of Wrath
VardaValar1: People will do good if they see a benefit to themselves
VardaValar1: Enlightened self-interest
ArPharazonV: but is that than truly good?
VardaValar1: What do you think? : )
Menelvagor Valar: and then there are those people who sacrifice
themselves to help others
ArPharazonV: is self-interest in itself not an evil thing, if it's the
only thing motivating you to do good?
Menelvagor Valar: but would that self-sacrifice be not an evil deed
VardaValar1: Self-interest is necessary to survival
ArPharazonV: self-sacrifice is obviously the 'anti' of self-interest...
yet it is considered a 'good' thing
VardaValar1: If a person is trying to save a group, such as a family or
friends, throwing himself on a grenade is a good thing. Doing it to
avoid problems is not.
Menelvagor Valar: true, but if everyone would sacrafice themselves for
others, one would only create stagnation, for no one would try to
VardaValar1: Self-sacrifice should be done where it is needed, not as a
ArPharazonV: this reminds me of a thread about morality on the
VardaValar1: Otherwise it becomes a form of self-indulgence, to see
oneself as good.
VardaValar1: Let's keep to our own thread for now : )
VardaValar1: Why is an Orc considered bad? Isn't he just following
ArPharazonV: is he not bad for following those orders without
self-reflection upon it?
Menelvagor Valar: weren't his ancestors (by speculation) good, but were
corrupted into what they have become now?
VardaValar1: How do we know he does not think it is right to do as a
revered Vala or Maia asks?
ArPharazonV: if my superior tells me to exterminate a village and I do
it, I'd consider it an evil to follow those orders, no matter the
status of that superior
VardaValar1: But we are talking about an individual Orc, not his
ArPharazonV: never mind part of that sentence, was writing two things
at once it seems
VardaValar1: That village is full of people who will murder others, and
have a huge stash of weaponry. They have missiles that will destroy
your unit and others.
VardaValar1: Innocents are also present.
VardaValar1: How do you stop one and not harm the other?
ArPharazonV: I'd do my best to spare the innocents no matter what, and
not just blow up the entire village
ArPharazonV: no matter what my superior said
VardaValar1: The harmful ones know to hide in the church, and store
Menelvagor Valar: or disguise themselves as villagers
VardaValar1: The missile silo is pointing at your home town.
VardaValar1: Small town folks know who and who is not one of them.
VardaValar1: It is hard to make anything truly black and white.
Menelvagor Valar: but do you have the time to check that before one of
those in disguise points a .48 at you?
VardaValar1: Almost any action will have a mix.
VardaValar1: You will point your .48 at an innocent villager?
ArPharazonV: is it right to sacrifice innocents just to stop a bad guy?
Menelvagor Valar: it doesn't make it right, but it might be necessary
VardaValar1: Is it right to sacrifice your home town because the
innocents will not move out of the way or turn in the bad ones?
ArPharazonV: real life examples: nuclear bombs on major towns in Japan
to get it to surrender, killing many many innocents
VardaValar1: Choices are very difficult
ArPharazonV: and the execution of convicted murderers whose guilt can
never be proven 100%
VardaValar1: Phar, many more innocents, including Japanese, would have
VardaValar1: The Japanese believed their ruler was really a god.
Menelvagor Valar: but if they hadn't dropped those bombs, the entire
population of Japan might have been exterminated in their defense
ArPharazonV: true, true...
ArPharazonV: oh well, drawing from the forum again...
FarmerMaggotV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Good to see you!
Menelvagor Valar: it seems as though good and evil are intertwined into
such a complex thing that it is often hard to determine which is which
VardaValar1: We were just discussing what Tolkien would have considered
to be evil traits.
Menelvagor Valar: and that, apart from the aspects generated by Point
VardaValar1: Aye, Menel
VardaValar1: And Tolkien shows that many times
ArPharazonV: reminds me of last week: that time we were discussing what
can be considered heroic, now we're discussing what can be considered
VardaValar1: Last week died because people insisted on not calling
VardaValar1: So I thought I'd tackle it from the other direction : )
Menelvagor Valar: smart move, but I fear this is going in the same
ArPharazonV: and I'm still not sure if heroic is about the deed or the
thought behind it... but let's get back to this topic
VardaValar1: Can you point at anyone at all in Tolkien as being evil?
Menelvagor Valar: Bill Ferny
ArPharazonV: Saruman, though it may not have been so from the beginning
VardaValar1: We are not worried about if they were ever not evil. Just
can they show us what evil is?
Menelvagor Valar: Feanor
ArPharazonV: a desire to unfair domination, for as long as possible,
over life-forms who have every right to freedom as you
VardaValar1: What is one evil trait you see in your choice?
ArPharazonV: can be found in Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman
VardaValar1: So there is fair domination and unfair domination?
VardaValar1: People choose to be dominated by someone, putting them
Menelvagor Valar: some people need to be "dominated" to function
ArPharazonV: well, the Elves trying to take realms of their own in the
wide lands of Middle-Earth could be seen as not evil
VardaValar1: Or just accepting them?
ArPharazonV: is Thingol's rule over Doriath fair or not fair?
Menelvagor Valar: democracy is nothing more than a populace enforced
and supported domination
ArPharazonV: is Galadriel's rule over Lorien fair or unfair?
Menelvagor Valar: or at least, our notion of Democracy
ArPharazonV: how about Elrond in Rivendell?
ArPharazonV: Elros in Numenor?
VardaValar1: Ok, so you would call Elrond's rule good and Saruman's
Menelvagor Valar: Saruman not in the beginning, but it was in the end
ArPharazonV: I would, but I still have to define the difference more
VardaValar1: Phar, who would you pick as the ruler showing good the
best as an example?
Menelvagor Valar: I think it would be wise to define "domination" as
ruling others without regard of their thoughts, well-being, or even
ArPharazonV: good question, Varda... at least it would be one who had
his subjects' respect, and not their fear
VardaValar1: What I'm trying for is to find two people who we can agree
as one good and one evil.
VardaValar1: Then figure out why. Using what Tolkien thought made them
Menelvagor Valar: why don't we start with Saruman?
VardaValar1: If we can't agree someone is good or evil, we have a
Menelvagor Valar: Saruman used to be good
ArPharazonV: but can we find anyone purely good?
Menelvagor Valar: Manw�
ArPharazonV: indeed, but why?
VardaValar1: Phar, you agree Manwe is purely good?
ArPharazonV: purely good may be a bit strong.... but as his wife you
should know best ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: because, based on the information we have, and the
ideas we hold on good and evil, we "know" he is good
VardaValar1: I just want you guys to agree on who is good and evil so
we can get somewhere.
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps it's better to start with acts of good or
evil, simplify matters :-)
VardaValar1: Manwe intends to do good, at least? You go along with that?
ArPharazonV: but is there anyone purely good and anyone purely evil?
ArPharazonV: sure, I'll go along with that, Varda... for now...
VardaValar1: This was not meant to be a discussion of pure good or pure
VardaValar1: Just what would an evil trait be?
Menelvagor Valar: like good: "not killing an enemy when you have the
opportunity to do so, and when he can cause no further harm, whatsoever"
VardaValar1: That could help us define what a good trait would be.
ArPharazonV: so mercy is good, Menel?
Menelvagor Valar: evil: "Attacking someone without cause"
VardaValar1: Phar, you give an example.
ArPharazonV: thinking, thinking...
VardaValar1: Without cause is tricky, as there is usually some cause,
such as profit or removing an obstacle.
Menelvagor Valar: without, under our convictions, justifiable cause then
VardaValar1: Because it is there is a phrase used for climbing a
mountain or to pk. But they are not the same.
ArPharazonV: to do more harm to the other than he deserves is evil, yet
how does one define how much he deserves?
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
FarmerMaggotV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Phar, can you think of one single deed Tolkien would have
called evil that is given in the books?
FarmerMaggotV: (close tab widget attracts the mouse)
ArPharazonV: cutting down Fangorn :-)
VardaValar1: Phar, that actually happened in the books?
ArPharazonV: well, yes, part of the forest, not the character
ArPharazonV: I think
ArPharazonV: or was that movie only? don't think so...
VardaValar1: Saruman had part of Fangorn's forest cut down in the
ArPharazonV: Treebeard rose because Saruman had cut down part of the
forest, so yes, it happened in the book...
Menelvagor Valar: how about: Sauron's desire to enslave all people of
Middle-Earth, with the intention to torture and kill hobbits, because
they are a pleasurable people free of his reign?
VardaValar1: So nothing in the book really jumped out at you as evil?
ArPharazonV: yes, Menel, that sounds about evil
VardaValar1: Menel, if he said no I was going to throw in the towel. ;-)
ArPharazonV: cutting down nature and putting machines and factories in
their place is something Tolkien considered evil
ArPharazonV: as can be seen by the brief glimpse of 'industrializing'
in the Shire
VardaValar1: Complete wipe of a forest was evil, yet Fangorn would
allow some use.
Menelvagor Valar: not exactly, as the "industrialization" of the Shire
was of absolutely no use, but to pollute it
ArPharazonV: digging up Bagshot Row and putting a factory in place of
the windmill was surely evil
VardaValar1: The mill was not evil at first, although part of industry
Menelvagor Valar: but the action taken simply to pollute it IS evil
ArPharazonV: indeed, pollution is evil...
VardaValar1: And the intention was to deface, to pollute, to make the
hobbits miserable when they returned home, as revenge.
ArPharazonV: diminishing another's lifestyle without profit to any
other aspect is an evil act, such as pollution for the sake of pollution
VardaValar1: Saruman was not making industry in the Shire to build.
Menelvagor Valar: but revenge itself is not necessarily evil
VardaValar1: You watch a lot of movies. : )
VardaValar1: Revenge is not a good thing.
ArPharazonV: revenge is only considered good when it's about restoring
VardaValar1: Revenge does not restore honor.
Menelvagor Valar: but to inflict that revenge upon others to get
revenge on those who hurt you is without a doubt, evil
VardaValar1: Revenge removes honor.
VardaValar1: But we are talking generalities here.
ArPharazonV: that is not always seen so, Varda....
VardaValar1: We need to keep to specifics and in 'Tolkien
ArPharazonV: hence revenge is often seen as a good thing
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate, Phar, in this particular case, Revenge
was exacted on innocents
aranfinwe: ummm... that would be dependent on where you draw the line
between justice and revenge, prolly
VardaValar1: I would have to go outside Tolkien to discuss this point.
Let's not just generalize.
VardaValar1: Use an action in the book
ArPharazonV: ah, justice... don't get me started on that
VardaValar1: The Shire is where we are.
VardaValar1: What Saruman did was evil, because it was intended only to
hurt and it did hurt. It was indeed revenge.
ArPharazonV: a bunch of happy innocent farming citizens
Menelvagor Valar: well, in Tolkien, Saruman took his revenge on the
hobbits who helped pull him down, by killing, imprisoning and making
the lives of their kin miserable
ArPharazonV: indeed, Menel.... but since his downfall could be
considered just, is the revenge not evil?
VardaValar1: Frodo tried to keep the hobbits from going overboard, as
he had become highly enlightened.
VardaValar1: But others saw that as weak.
Menelvagor Valar: Frodo justly saw that revenge only leads to more
VardaValar1: Menel already said what Saruman did as revenge was evil,
ArPharazonV: and revenge can only lead to harm...
VardaValar1: Frodo saw one must stop the problem, but he did not see it
necessary to add to the pain.
Menelvagor Valar: indeed
VardaValar1: He had seen enough of it.
VardaValar1: Frodo had seen from all sides.
VardaValar1: Most had not and could not understand why he did as he did.
VardaValar1: If one has done evil and pulled back from it, as Frodo
did, he may be extremely careful.
VardaValar1: I would have liked to have seem more about Osse, for that
reason. Would have been interesting.
Menelvagor Valar: it was a wonder he could even bear that burden
Menelvagor Valar: Turin could not
aranfinwe: time for me to depart, namarie all
ArPharazonV: Gollum did evil, switched to good, and then he went evil
VardaValar1: Namarie, Finwe!
Menelvagor Valar: Gollum never switched to good
aranfinwe has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: he was on the verge though
ArPharazonV: well, part of him did, for some point
ArPharazonV: but the other half got the better
VardaValar1: Gollum came very close. He came right up to it when he saw
Menelvagor Valar: and it was only because his situation had lead him
VardaValar1: But the rough interruption by the well-meaning, protective
Sam, prevented the finishing of a potential epiphany.
Menelvagor Valar: aye
VardaValar1: Sam was right to be concerned at every other moment,
however. How was he to know?
VardaValar1: He tried to pull back immediately, but it was too late
Menelvagor Valar: as quoted from The Sword of Truth series: "The worst
of evil can be caused by the best of intentions"
VardaValar1: Gollum was not a person able to hold onto the feeling
VardaValar1: Gollum was still the cause, not Sam
ArPharazonV: Gollum's past was the cause, not the Gollum at that point
ArPharazonV: Sam's 'paranoia' was only due to Gollum's past
Menelvagor Valar: yet, had Sam not interfered at that point, Gollum
might have turned
VardaValar1: At that moment, he was making a tenuous break
ArPharazonV: recent past, mind you, but past
Menelvagor Valar: so, in that, Sam caused Gollum to cause not to cease
ArPharazonV: unintentionally, yes
VardaValar1: Sam would normally have been right, and apologized. But
Gollum could not work with the apology and regain his feeling.
Menelvagor Valar: indeed
ArPharazonV: but was Sam being sincere in that apology?
VardaValar1: Aye, Sam was the immediate cause at that second. Because
Gollum was so damaged already.
Menelvagor Valar: which makes my point stronger that evil and good are
very much intertwined
VardaValar1: Sam felt badly.
VardaValar1: Tolkien shows that mix over and over. Nothing black and
VardaValar1: Sam has faults too
VardaValar1: But Sam is not evil.
VardaValar1: Sam had resilience, where Gollum did not. Thanks to a
kinder life partly. But also it is because he is Sam. : )
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Menelvagor Valar: but it shows that one can cause harm when exactly the
opposite was intended
VardaValar1: Absolutely correct.
ArPharazonV: Sam was stubborn in his opinion, which happened to be a
bad thing at the time
VardaValar1: Yet stubborn opinions were also what saved Frodo.
ArPharazonV: at which point it was a good thing :-)
Menelvagor Valar: which makes it a situation dependant trait
VardaValar1: He believed stubbornly that he had to do what he had to
do. Stubborn is not a perfect word here.
ArPharazonV: Frodo's trust in Gollum was a good thing, at one time....
the other time, his gullibility was a bad thing
VardaValar1: Frodo was not that gullible.
VardaValar1: Sam thought he was.
VardaValar1: Sam was amazed to find out Frodo saw through Gollum.
VardaValar1: This is shown in a frequently forgotten section
VardaValar1: Frodo makes Gollum promise, and Gollum chooses to promise
with the Ring enforcing it.
Menelvagor Valar: I remember some of it, but not in detail
VardaValar1: Frodo then warns Gollum not to do that, as the Ring will
twist his promise.
VardaValar1: The Ring did just that.
ArPharazonV: it may be that the section is not frequently forgotten...
but its significance is
VardaValar1: It took Frodo's words, and used them
VardaValar1: Pardon, I should have said the significance is forgotten
ArPharazonV: in fact, I had not looked at it like this before :-)
VardaValar1: I wish Tolkien would have had a reminder to the reader in
VardaValar1: Frodo mentioned both things:
VardaValar1: he could use the Ring to make Gollum jump from a cliff or
VardaValar1: if Gollum harmed them.
VardaValar1: Gollum bit Frodo's finger off, definite harm.
VardaValar1: So the Ring made Gollum fall from a cliff, into fire. Both
VardaValar1: The Ring was still on Frodo's finger!
VardaValar1: The Ring did not know it's own danger.
FarmerMaggotV: interesting, hadn't looked at it that way
VardaValar1: It was tricked.
VardaValar1: Neither did PJ. I hoped he would do a voice-over.
ArPharazonV: interesting... very interesting...
VardaValar1: People seriously believed Tolkien had Gollum have an
accident, poor story-telling. Makes me sad.
VardaValar1: All that build-up settled by a mere accident. Gollum known
to be highly dexterous, cliff crawler.
Menelvagor Valar: unfortunately, I must disagree there
VardaValar1: Tell me. : )
VardaValar1: I know I'm a minority. ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: When Isildur cut off Sauron's finger, Sauron lost all
the abilities he had with the One Ring on
Menelvagor Valar: which would signify that the finger which the Ring
was on, should at least be in direct contact with the spirit of the
finger's owner, i.e. attached to the body to work
Menelvagor Valar: e.g.*
Menelvagor Valar: (I think)
VardaValar1: e.g. Exempli gratia. For example:
VardaValar1: Now let's look that up in the books.
Menelvagor Valar: same as i.e. therefore :-)
VardaValar1: or "in other words"
Menelvagor Valar: I retract my statement
VardaValar1: eg is evil grin?
Menelvagor Valar: in the books, Isildur first killed Sauron with the
shards of narsil before cutting the finger off
Menelvagor Valar: to you apparently is :-D
VardaValar1: Yay Menel!
VardaValar1: Bless you for seeing past the movie.
VardaValar1: I felt the movie had extreme ability to put across points
that it should have, and missed so very sadly.
Menelvagor Valar: "Now let's look that up in the books." triggered my
VardaValar1: Some that could have been better seen in a movie, perhaps.
VardaValar1: Go for it, Menel!
VardaValar1: I dearly love the movie. I wish that it had addressed a
few things it did not.
ArPharazonV: wait, he killed Sauron, then, cut the finger off?
Menelvagor Valar: and yes, I would say that even if Gollum would slip
in Orodruin, his nimbleness would at least enable him to grab a hold on
VardaValar1: But I also wished Tolkien had clubbed us readers over the
head a bit harder in a few spots that he went very delicately.
Menelvagor Valar: Gollum's revelry over gaining the Ring back, would
not overcome his ancient ability to survive
VardaValar1: Tolkien trusted us readers too much, perhaps.
VardaValar1: Gollum would have been even more careful to survive to
protect the Ring where it was most endangered.
Menelvagor Valar: I do believe he thought not everything should be
revealed and some things discovered by the readers themselves
FladrifV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Frodo outlined exactly what would happen.
VardaValar1: Menel, again, exactly right.
ArPharazonV: yes, it shows...
VardaValar1: Part of the reason we exist.
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps, that particular phase was his ultimate test
for us readers
Menelvagor Valar: and most of us failed horrible I'm afraid to admit
VardaValar1: Tolkien purposely dropped many many hints on many things.
For our pleasure and his. The Ultimate Riddler.
VardaValar1: I wrote an article on it.
Menelvagor Valar: Thankfully we have the Starkindler to open our eyes
to the light :-)
VardaValar1: Only if eyes wish to open will they do so. Thank you
Menelvagor Valar: true, but is that not the point of being here?
VardaValar1: I trust you folk to catch me when I wander too far into
speculative madness, however. : )
ArPharazonV: you should write a book: reading Lotr through the lines:
with all these secret thingies included...
VardaValar1: Aye, our raison d'etre. Our reason for existence.
ArPharazonV: I'd read it and compare it for days
VardaValar1: I am working on one, called the Tolkien Encyclopedia ; )
Menelvagor Valar: hahahaha :-)
VardaValar1: You are helping.
VardaValar1: See my article on Frodo
VardaValar1: Frodo's Success or How Could a Ringbearer Destroy the Ring?
Menelvagor Valar: I nearly caught you there on Gollum, Varda
Menelvagor Valar: unfortunately, in the end, I only caught myself
VardaValar1: If you catch me, then that is good
Menelvagor Valar: or I should say, fortunately :-)
VardaValar1: I make mistakes. I have many opportunities to do so
VardaValar1: You did beautifully, Menel!
Menelvagor Valar: *bows gracefully*
VardaValar1: Those who do nothing have less chance to make mistakes, or
to do something brilliant.
VardaValar1: Shall we adjourn, while happy?
Menelvagor Valar: I believe that is a good idea :-)
VardaValar1: Yay for our side! Namarie, gentle folk!
Menelvagor Valar: it was a good discussion today
ArPharazonV: well, then, Namarie I suppose
ArPharazonV: I'll write my next post somewhere next week
Menelvagor Valar: I�ll save the transcript from here and send them to
VardaValar1: Thank you, Phar
ArPharazonV: as sson as I'm done harvesting heavy leather ;-)
VardaValar1: Looking forward to reading it!
VardaValar1: Thank you, Menel
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: aye, I'll be saving and sending too
ArPharazonV: unless there's any more to discuss?
ArPharazonV: I'm going to Maraudon on Tuesday!
VardaValar1: We went there Friday for our guild questing
VardaValar1: Had an excellent time
ArPharazonV: today I got all 5 quests one can get outside the instance
VardaValar1: If you can get the Princess quest, go for it!
ArPharazonV: I have it
VardaValar1: So you know the rewards.
ArPharazonV: nice staff for reward, aye
VardaValar1: I went for the bow ; )
ArPharazonV: well, I'm a druid... what ya gonna do
Menelvagor Valar: the tiara the princess drops for cloth wearers is
very nice as well
Menelvagor Valar: didn�t replace it until like 59 or so
VardaValar1: Cool : )
ArPharazonV: tiara, eh?
Menelvagor Valar: yup
Menelvagor Valar: that one yes
Menelvagor Valar: and replaced it with http://www.thottbot.com/?i=18623
ArPharazonV: oh, http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=12604
Menelvagor Valar: of course, the aim is to replace it with http://www.thottbot.com/?i=18565
ArPharazonV: aye, looking good... going for the entire http://wow.allakhazam.com/search.html?q=magister
ArPharazonV: better seen here http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/itemset.html?setid=181
Menelvagor Valar: aye, only have the belt though
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: well, you'll have to beat http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/mob.html?wmob=1853
VardaValar1: We had a good Tolkien chat : )
VardaValar1: Welcome to After-meeting
VardaValar1: Sauron is on Lothar WoW, Ereinion : )
Xseanzee disco: :-) nice.
Xseanzee disco: did he get the name?
VardaValar1: We don't have space for it on our comp
VardaValar1: Only two slots each
VardaValar1: He is on as Gorthaur
Xseanzee disco: ah.
Xseanzee disco: what level are you now varda? i havent played in weeks.
VardaValar1: Fainan is 60
VardaValar1: Varda is 19, but now starting to move
VardaValar1: We missed you
VardaValar1: Would have been fun to have you in Maraudon last Friday
guild quest : )
VardaValar1: Figure you had to miss, busy guy
ArPharazonV: got any advice for Maraudon?
VardaValar1: Good group is a huge help
VardaValar1: Our Valar group could count on each other
ArPharazonV: we're going with guild-members, so that's no problem
ArPharazonV: at least, it shouldn't be
ArPharazonV: 3 druids, roles not completely assigned yet, but I'll
probably get the catform-part
ArPharazonV: one of the others is a healer, and who gets to be bear and
who cat isn't fully decided yet
VardaValar1: I'd love to try questing with all five as hunters. ; )
VardaValar1: 5 on Aimed Shot, same guy
ArPharazonV: hmm.... 4 paladins and a hunter to pull... sound good?
VardaValar1: With Trueshot aura and pets
VardaValar1: Yes, if I or Dusksinger is the hunter : )
ArPharazonV: and everyone dies in a fight except the hunter... sheesh...
ArPharazonV: meh, make it 4 paladins and a priest.... they can pull,
VardaValar1: *gulp* yes
VardaValar1: Hunter can drop aggro. My priest might do a psychic scream
ArPharazonV: true, true...
ArPharazonV: but with 2 paladins getting the aggro off and the other 2
healing the priest...
Menelvagor Valar: how about... 2 priests, 2 mages and 1 rogue
Menelvagor Valar: group of 5, 2 undead, 3 humanoid
ArPharazonV: lack of tank... how long would they last?
Menelvagor Valar: long
Menelvagor Valar: massive crowd control
ArPharazonV: true, true
VardaValar1: Rogue can tank then?
Menelvagor Valar: priest: shackle undead, mage: polymorph, rogue: sap
Menelvagor Valar: with 2 priests...
Menelvagor Valar: one of the mages would most likely tank
ArPharazonV: can rogues use leather?
Menelvagor Valar: it�s the only thing they can use
ArPharazonV: not cloth?
ArPharazonV: heck, even I can wear cloth
Menelvagor Valar: of course, but what rogue would want to walk around
Xseanzee disco: lol sorry i've been missing so much.
Xseanzee disco: a lots been going on in life.
ArPharazonV: someone who likes to look pretty
VardaValar1: Gil, that's why we have transcripts, Forum, News. To help
you catch up and not be left out : )
Xseanzee disco: Nice. : )
ArPharazonV: oh, btw, I've got the hobo-look going on now with my
VardaValar1: True of many, Gil. It's always amazing how much can land
on one person at one time.
Menelvagor Valar: Rogues do not live to look pretty
VardaValar1: The hat? I love the hat
ArPharazonV: my ankle-bracers give me bare feet, and this hat too...
Menelvagor Valar: they live not to be heard by the rattle of their
chain mail when stealthing
ArPharazonV: picked up http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=12470
Xseanzee disco: any of you seen that crazy sword thats suppose to drop
VardaValar1: I have Gahz'rilla's Fang, the super dagger, from ZF.
ArPharazonV: oh, you mean the sword that was cut in two halves? haven't
ArPharazonV: don't even think it's actually in there yet.... perhaps
VardaValar1: The Fang is a Fang, so it can't be it.
VardaValar1: Sounds like Narsil. :-)
ArPharazonV: well, there's an Elf in Gadgetzan who talks about a
legendary sword that was cut in two, the two halves are rumored to be
ArPharazonV: it's the same guy who gives you the troll temper-quest
ArPharazonV: also, the description of Zul'Farrak the innkeepers give
you mention the blade as well
Xseanzee disco: yeah.
VardaValar1: Is that what you meant, Gil-galad?
Xseanzee disco: its a purple item. so didnt really expect any of you to
say yes lol
VardaValar1: I'm a 60, Gil
ArPharazonV: Sul'thraze the Lasher
ArPharazonV: Troll legends tell of a powerful sword called Sul'thraze
the Lasher, a weapon capable of instilling fear and weakness in even
the most formidable of foes.
ArPharazonV: Long ago, the weapon was split in half. However, rumors
have circulated that the two halves may be found somewhere within
VardaValar1: but I only was interested in ZF for the Carrot on a Stick.
The Fang was a wonderful extra, as a dagger user.
Xseanzee disco: i got the fang too.
Xseanzee disco: sold it though,
ArPharazonV: not a bad sword...
VardaValar1: The Fang is a really big deal for rogues especially
VardaValar1: I am not currently using it. Training up two-handed swords
ArPharazonV: get Sul'thraze then!
VardaValar1: It was nice in one hand training up one-handed items
VardaValar1: We do have to go back to ZF for Ulmo's Carrot
VardaValar1: For some reason the quest did not work for him
VardaValar1: Maybe we will try for the sword too : )
Xseanzee disco: i'm free for about half an hour if anyone needs a tank
good luck... very low drop-rate
VardaValar1: Gorthaur has my WoW computer for now : )
VardaValar1: He asked what level? And said he'd play with you anyway ;-)
ArPharazonV: get those 2 items, and you can re-make the sword
ArPharazonV: you just have to visit Zul'Farrak a few hundred times on
average, and who knows, you might be lucky
ArPharazonV: personally, I'm still searching for the Scythe of Elune ;-)
Xseanzee disco: 55 warrior
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, time for me to head to bed
Xseanzee disco: scythe of elune? thought that was only part of a quest
and wasnt a real item.
ArPharazonV: I know, I know...
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie everyone
VardaValar1: 52.1 dps. Ok, nice
ArPharazonV: but I'm hoping they finish it