August 28, 2005
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Lord of the Rings Movies
VardaValar1: IzoSprog had an intriguing Tolkien problem for us : )
VardaValar1: Izo, would you like to tell about it and what you've
managed to do so far?
IzoSprog: Righty, its my 18th this October, and I'm gettings a ring -
What I'd like to do is have my name in Elvish, with its meaning,
engraved on it
IzoSprog: Would like it to be in Runes, but we're looking at Sindain
VardaValar1: Sindarin for Robert, in Tengwar
VardaValar1: Bright Fame
VardaValar1: Fame can be Glory
Eonwe Valar: Cirthas Daeron or Angerthas Moria? :}
VardaValar1: Probably Feanorian
VardaValar1: So Sindarin for Bright or Shining plus Glory
Eonwe Valar: Fëanorian would be Tengwar. Cirth are runes.
Eonwe Valar: Unless I'm just taking you too literally :}
VardaValar1: hmm. My first thought was Tengwar
IzoSprog: *Sits, a little bewildered*
VardaValar1: Izo, do you have any idea?
Eonwe Valar: If you're looking to write it in Sindarin, Cirth is
typically used for SIndarin.
VardaValar1: Answered that
IzoSprog: Haha, not much no, wish i did >_<
VardaValar1: Good point. Tengwar was developed for Quenya
Eonwe Valar: Appendix E in the back of RotK
IzoSprog: *grabs n looks*
VardaValar1: Good idea. References are a huge help
Eonwe Valar: unless you have the version where the Appendices are a
Orodreth V: yarr: http://www.elvish.org/elm/names.html
Orodreth V: ROBERT, ROBIN (m.) - Old Ger. 'fame + bright'; alcar
"glory, splendour, brillance"; calima "bright", thus Alcarcalimo
IzoSprog: *beams happily*
Orodreth V: I <3 that site.
Orodreth V: That's Quenyan, So if you're looking for Sindarian, look
VardaValar1: That makes it simpler. Don't have to look at versions.
Just let that other guy give you his. ;-)
IzoSprog: haha yep
VardaValar1: Do you know if you want Sindarin or Quenyan?
IzoSprog: Sindarin is, I think, the smoother language?
Orodreth V: Some of his definitions for names I find different
elsewhere, he used behindthename.com (which is down).
Eonwe Valar: Quenyan s becomes Sindarin th
VardaValar1: I dug out some name books, so we know he was ok on the
name meaning for Robert
Eonwe Valar: if that's what you mean by smoother
VardaValar1: Eonwe tends to like Noldorin stuff, and I tend to go for
IzoSprog: Aye, I guess so, I dont know too much of Elvish, as you can
see, so its partly why I'm here
ArathornValar: Sindarin lisps?
Eonwe Valar: Aglar seems to be the Sindarin form
Eonwe Valar: Alkar being the Quenya given in the Sil.
VardaValar1: K is old form. C is newer
Eonwe Valar: My still uses Alkar at least in Alkarinquë, the
Quenya form of Aglareb :}
IzoSprog: So am I right in saying that it would be "Alcarcalimo" -
"Alcar" "Calima", so,
IzoSprog: That'd be the name and definition, though it would probably
be enough to just have the name, as the definition is within the name
Eonwe Valar: Only in Quenyan :}
VardaValar1: Izo, you looking for Sindarin or Quenya?
VardaValar1: or any quick fix? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Interestingly, both Alcar and Calima are from the same
root "Kal" to shine
sauronjag: sorry folks, have to go now, I like that name website though
IzoSprog: Haha, well, anything for now would be fine
VardaValar1: Cool, alright
Eonwe Valar: so is calen, which is green :}
VardaValar1: Ok, so we should give you both a Quenya and Sindarin form
and let you toss them around
IzoSprog: Sounds great!
Eonwe Valar: Calaglar would probably be a Sindarin version.
VardaValar1: Now I have to dig out my books, but these guys will have
it figured before I get it straight. :-)
Eonwe Valar: One sec and I'll see if I can't find somethign other than
"Cal" or "Gal" to work with.
Eonwe Valar: Glin- gleam
VardaValar1: ah hah! That second Cirth is from Noldor who wanted to be
able to use sounds not found in Sindarin.
Eonwe Valar: Alata "radiance" for a Quenya alternative
Eonwe Valar: Hmm thought the Second Cirth was Angerthas Moria, and for
obvious reasons adapted by Dwarves...
Eonwe Valar: A bit of trivia for future reference (I may find a use for
Eonwe Valar: Tengwar translates to "letters" while Cirth translates to
IzoSprog: ooh, interestin ^^
VardaValar1: Certhas Daeron, first ones for Sindarin
Eonwe Valar: Tiw would be a single "letter" and Certar would be a
IzoSprog: Thats the definition again, then, Varda?
VardaValar1: Angerthas Daeron, Noldorin sound additions
VardaValar1: In here, nothing gets to be "just trivia" ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Certhas Daeron originally for SIndarin only
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
Orodreth V: For those who so may be interested, there are actual
VardaValar1: The Angerthas is shown in the tables in RotK, but you have
to look up which numbers go to which
VardaValar1: Just use the whole thing
Eonwe Valar: While attributed to him, some changes were likely made by
the Noldor of Eregion for sounds not familiar to Sindarin.
VardaValar1: Aye, Oro. And we have some listed on our Links page : )
Eonwe Valar: Paraprhasing to show I found it :}
VardaValar1: I recognize and admire your paraphrase
Eonwe Valar: But Angerthas Moria is still the later form :}
Eonwe Valar: at least as far as I can tell
Eonwe Valar: and the Dwarves of Erebor further modified that.
Eonwe Valar: Cirth 57 and 58 are from the mode of Erebor.
VardaValar1: The Table of Values shows the Angerthas Moria on the right
VardaValar1: Problem with Angerthas Moria is the dwarves changed it so
it would work for Khuzdul, their language, and made unsystematic
Eonwe Valar: Another difference to note is that Tengwar does not
typically have vowels.
VardaValar1: might not be so hot for Elvish
Eonwe Valar: Aye
ArPharazonV: so, how does all this fit in with the Dwarven alphabet
given in the Hobbit? (and frankly, the only I've ever been able to use)
Eonwe Valar: I plan to learn that eventually ;} Will no doubt help my
VardaValar1: With as long a language as Elvish, that could be a good
VardaValar1: Phar, that is probably Angerthas Moria
Eonwe Valar: the Dwarven Alphabet in the Hobbit is probably the mode of
Erebor, a modification of Angerthas Moria.
IzoSprog: Ahh, i should go, million other things to do tonight too
>_< thanks for your help, and I'll be sure to keep in touch, got
you on AIM too. email@example.com should you find anything more.
Sorry to rush off >_<
Eonwe Valar: take care :}
IzoSprog: and you! great meeting you all :-)
VardaValar1: checked, that is what they used on the tomb inscription
Orodreth V: Namarie!
IzoSprog: I'll get on the forums tomorrow!
Orodreth V: /me half-waves
VardaValar1: Great : )
IzoSprog has left the room.
VardaValar1: So you don't want the Angerthas Moria for Elvish
Eonwe Valar: Aye, the Tomb was Angerthas Moria, the Book of Mazarbul
was mode of Erebor.
ArPharazonV: at least the Erebor-mode was easily associated with the
modern alphabet ;-)
Orodreth V: Tengwar was a script devised for..Quenyan, Sindarian, or
VardaValar1: Oro, if you have any URL's for more fonts like that not
already included in our links, please email them or put them in this
chat for the Links page!
Eonwe Valar: Quenyan
Eonwe Valar: It was developed by the Noldor in Aman
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe is right
Orodreth V: Right, made before the Stupidity of the Elves.
Orodreth V: It was then brought over.
Eonwe Valar: "the kindred of the Eldar most skilled in such matters" :}
VardaValar1: Caused by the Goof of the Overprotective Valar
Orodreth V: Did Sindarian previously have a sript, or did they adapt
Eonwe Valar: strange how Noldor as seen as smiths, and yet there are
others who seem to have smithing skills that surpass them.
Eonwe Valar: Sindarin had Cirth
Eonwe Valar: They were devised by the SIndar.
Orodreth V: Right-o.
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure the link is noticable :}
is good for Elvish word glossary that is hard
to argue with. :-)
Orodreth V: Then quenyans was outlawed by what's-his-nam, and Tengwar
went the way of the dodo.
VardaValar1: Thingol, because of the Kinslaying
Orodreth V: Or did I miss something?
Orodreth V: Yea, that whole mess.
Orodreth V: Well, Tengwar would still (presumably) be used in Aman.
Eonwe Valar: The cirth in their simplest and oldest form spread to all
the peoples of Middle-Earth, including orcs.
VardaValar1: Aye, Oro
Orodreth V: Unless/until someone came up wtih something better.
VardaValar1: And Quenya was still used in a lot of writing.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, Cirth was influenced by the Tengwar so they
weren't totalyl lost.
Orodreth V: Elvish Latin, I've heard it called.
Orodreth V: (Quenya)
VardaValar1: Gondorian scholars probably were more familiar with Quenya
than most Elves by the time of the War of the Rings.
ArPharazonV: aye, in the Outer Lands it was like Latin
ArPharazonV: but in Aman, presumably, it is still common
VardaValar1: Right, Elvish Latin is a good description.
VardaValar1: Aye, most likely
VardaValar1: but the Sil glossary is murder to use since it's by the
Eonwe Valar: Seems the Elves of the West all but gave up on Cirth
Orodreth V: Possibly becasue it has a larger word-set and has better
Eonwe Valar: So Cirth never developed a cursive form.
Eonwe Valar: In Eregion it was used and thus passed to Moria though.
VardaValar1: Found your reference in Sil to aglar.
Eonwe Valar: Most Eladr would've been using Fëanorian Tengwar..
Eonwe Valar: *Eldar
VardaValar1: Aglar. Quenya alkar, Sindarin aglareb
VardaValar1: with root kal shine, just like you said
VardaValar1: glin, for eye-gleam. Won't work, but neat
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a bit. Be back to talk language in a sec :}
Orodreth V: By the way, where's a good Sindarina reference?
Orodreth V: I can only find Quenyan word-lists.
VardaValar1: A bunch about shining under kal (gal)
Orodreth V: No Sindarian ones.
VardaValar1: Sindarin galadh is tree, not to be confused with Sindarin
galad for radiance.
VardaValar1: Under ril for "brilliance"
VardaValar1: Idril in Quenya form is Itarille or Itarilde. So Idril
must be Sindarin! : )
VardaValar1: which is peculiar, but interesting.
ArPharazonV: she was obviously born before the great march, since
Turgon's wife died at the Helcaraxe
ArPharazonV: which means she wasn't born with the name Idril
VardaValar1: She was called Celebrindal "silver-foot"
ArPharazonV: sounds Sindarin..
ArPharazonV: or is Celeb Quenya?
VardaValar1: celeb is Quenya
ArPharazonV: ok, nevermind then
VardaValar1: That's it for that glossary
Lord of the Rings
ArPharazonV: btw, watched all 3 movies
again last week
VardaValar1: In one week? cool
ArPharazonV: yeah, my brother needed the pc.. so I had evenings free to
watch about 11 hours of movie ;-)
ArPharazonV: anyway, the more I watch them, the more the differences
with the books start to catch my eye...
Orodreth V has left the room.
ArPharazonV: and yet, they become more acceptable, as I understand what
needs to be changed for a movie
ArPharazonV: as such, I've started to see them as their own seperate
tale, not meant for detailed comparison to the books....
ArPharazonV: the only things bugging me now are the short stops and
lack of context...
ArPharazonV: it's like they took all the famous quotes and sentences
from the books and removed every bit of context between them
ArPharazonV: very odd, that
VardaValar1: There is much to love, and much to exasperate
ArPharazonV: I think that, had I not read the books, I would have
thought to myself "where the heck did that come from?" at many moments
in the movie
VardaValar1: Could be : )
VardaValar1: I did enjoy their crumbling bridge scene in Moria
ArPharazonV: aye, that was fun...
VardaValar1: But when they said they didn't have time to fit in this or
that, I would think of that
VardaValar1: They really messed up by leaving out the Scouring of the
Shire. Wrecked the ending, so that it was all over the place. All those
black out areas in between too
ArPharazonV: but it's not those things that bother me.. it's the
ArPharazonV: for example, I noticed with Galadriel's mirror...
ArPharazonV: that one moment Galadriel talks to Frodo about not
trusting anyone or something like that, and the next moment, for some
reason, Frodo offers her the Ring
ArPharazonV: in the book, there's a finely placed bridge between those
ArPharazonV: in the movie, the context disappears entirely
ArPharazonV: and those are the things that bother me
VardaValar1: They do things like that that make Frodo look weak
VardaValar1: He was really nerfed in the movie
ArPharazonV: it's like the writers took out all the famous quotes and
placed them together without any links... and that's very odd
ArPharazonV: aye, he was..
ArPharazonV: so was Faramir
VardaValar1: Character assassination, purely there ;-)