Valar Guild

September 19, 2004 Meeting

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
5pm EST, 22:00 GMT
Transcript team for Sept 19: Arathorn, Ar-Pharazon, Farmer Maggot, Varda
  Arathorn-Valar, Ar-Pharazon-V, Arwen-V, Beregond-V/VBeregond, Celebrimbor-V, Elatan-Valar, Eonwe-Valar, Eowyn-V/DaeTPringl, Gelmir-V/Shaggyjoe, Gil-galad-V/Xseanzee disco, Gilraen-V, Grimbold-V/HearnoEvil80, Gwaihir-Valar, FarmerMaggot-V/Musics4Me2, Paladin Took-V/MyLifeforAuir/ThainPaladinTook, Theoden-V, Thorondor-Valar (presiding), Varda-Valar

Before meeting
Meeting Begins (Thorondor-Valar presiding)
    He that Walks Unseen-(TV) joined our ranks of Tolkien-only members.
    Arathorn-V became Arathorn-Valar, Maia honor in a test during the meeting given by Elatan-Valar, Eonwe-Valar, and Varda-Valar. Congrats! Thank you to Thorondor-Valar for uncomplainingly chairing and releasing the Valar for the test, despite the fact that we know of his time zone problem and work tomorrow!
  Tolkien Encyclopedia:
    Poetry by Turgon-V and He that Walks Unseen-TV
  Discussion about Eru Iluvatar, badly tangented out of Tolkien in many places, but veering back on topic here and there thanks to Thorondor's powerful efforts. Suggested by Ar-Pharazon and Thorondor.
After meeting

Before Meeting:
You have just entered room "Valar Guild meetingplace."
Shaggyjoe: and I REALLY want to be here, because.. ya know I havn't been to a guild meeting in.. uhm.. ages..
VardaValar1: Aiya : )
ArPharazonV: Hail
Shaggyjoe: Heya Varda!
ElatanValar: Heyas Here Varda
Eonwe Valar: Heya Elbereth :}
VardaValar1: Ok, all dl'd. Now what? : )
Shaggyjoe: Friends will be here to give me a ride to the fair soon.
GilraenV: Aiya Varda
ElatanValar: Now you unzip and install
VardaValar1: Shaggy, forgive me, what is your guild name?
VardaValar1: Hi Gilraen!
VardaValar1: Done
Musics4Me2 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Musics4Me2: Aiya
ElatanValar: Ok, in you programs you will find Ventrilo. start it
Eonwe Valar: I posted a small part to the MEORP btw
VardaValar1: cool
Shaggyjoe: oh!
Shaggyjoe: ventrilo..
ArPharazonV: these past few days we had... what's it called? carnival/fair my dictionary says..
Eonwe Valar: what does it look like? :}
ElatanValar: A head with sunglasses :-)
ArPharazonV: party-week in my town!
Eonwe Valar: meant Phat's carnival/fair :}
Eonwe Valar: er, Phar's :}
ArPharazonV: well
ArPharazonV: it's a whole week of events, but it centers around what could be called the actual fair
ArPharazonV: from thursday evening to saturday evening
ArPharazonV: hold on, gonna look up some translations...
ArPharazonV: at the 'car park' near our local soccer..well..stadium, it could be called
ArPharazonV: there are all sorts of 'booths' I think they are called in English
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eagle
Eonwe Valar: sounds like a fair/carnival to me :}
VardaValar1: It says it doesn't want to connect
ElatanValar: Hello Gwaihir
GwaihirValar: good evening/day/time-typed-thing :-)
ArPharazonV: and 'rides', like you see in theme parks, just a lot smaller...
VardaValar1: "Unable to connect to server"
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
GwaihirValar: Aiya
Shaggyjoe: Uhm... Its Mmmeeeeeeeeeeee Gelmir.
ArPharazonV: Aiya, both
Xseanzee disco: heyyyyyyyy
Eonwe Valar: Heya Gel and welcome to a pre-meeting :}
ArPharazonV: well, that was just the main part of the week
ArathornValar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: we had races, parades, etc etc
ArathornValar: ?? isn't this kind of early
VardaValar1: Aiya
VardaValar1: We aren't in the meeting yet
ArPharazonV: all sorts of games, for over a week, all over town
GilraenV: Eonwe was lonely
Shaggyjoe: this is like a Pre-meeting
VardaValar1: Elatan and I were doing an experiment and got company
ArathornValar: egads.. never seen so many so early :P
Shaggyjoe: <blinks>
ArPharazonV: I just thought I'd be the first in the room... joined over 10 minutes ago
ArPharazonV: and lo! Elatan already here
Shaggyjoe: so was I.. your slow.
Eonwe Valar: If Aftermeeting can extend to 2 hours after the meeting, certainly we can have Pre-Meeting at least 30 minutes before Meeting? :}
ArathornValar: playing my HC barb right now.. almost at lvl 18... see you in a bit :-)
ArathornValar: just never happened b4 is all I'm saying :-)
Shaggyjoe: oh.. D2.. its been awhile.
VardaValar1: Right, Eonwe!
Shaggyjoe: yall are still addicted to that?
VardaValar1: D2X? You bet : )
Shaggyjoe: wow.
ArPharazonV: still haven't bought it yet ;-)
Shaggyjoe: <laughs>
Shaggyjoe: Im highly anticipating WoW... who is planning on getting that?
ArPharazonV: as I mailed to Eonwe in my email, it's one of the games I may purchase in the next year
ArPharazonV: D2X, I mean
VardaValar1: A bunch of us
ArPharazonV: WoW I'll certainly buy
Eonwe Valar: I'll be getting WoW Gel :}
VardaValar1: Eonwe is the one heading the WoW project
ArPharazonV: still waiting for my beta-mail!
GwaihirValar: WoW is a bit of an iffy for me...
VardaValar1: Also waiting for Middle-earth Online, but it's been pushed back to next year
ArPharazonV: MeO I also put in the email, at the 'perhaps buying in the future' list
ArPharazonV: I've put dozens of games in the email I sent Eonwe...
ArPharazonV: I wonder how he made the selection... it on the games-page yet?
VardaValar1: They have to make it so we can buy that field of dreams
Eonwe Valar: Nothing newis on the Games Page yet,.. still all from last year
Shaggyjoe: By the way.. a member of Valar, Folco is still alive and active. <smiles>
VardaValar1: Good to hear
VardaValar1: People need to contact once a month if only by email or forum, if they can, to protect name
Shaggyjoe: Plays DAoC with me, Ian is his name, I belive he is rather unknown to most.
Shaggyjoe: aye
Shaggyjoe: I will tell him.. im guilty of not doing that myself.
VardaValar1: Many are : )
ArPharazonV: well, anyway
Shaggyjoe: in fact...
ArPharazonV: first week of college is over
ArPharazonV: and so is the fair
ArPharazonV: so I promise!
ArPharazonV: I'll post next week!
VardaValar1: This is next week ; )
Eonwe Valar: Third week is done for me, and I know this is already going to be a tough semester.
ArPharazonV: this is my second year... and I've got a whole lot less hours than last year
VardaValar1: Fangorn is on the telephone, says hi!
ArPharazonV: now I've got 1 course on each day, and I'm free on Friday
ElatanValar: hi hi Fangorn
ArPharazonV: hi!
Musics4Me2: Aiya Fangorn!
Shaggyjoe: Hey bud!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Fangorn :}
Shaggyjoe: im gonna get Folcor to come in here.. his SN is Agentpuma21
Shaggyjoe: gotta get him offa dark ages.
ArPharazonV: Folco... name sounds familiar.. a hobbit, right?
Eonwe Valar: He won't be kicking and screaming will he? :} It's tough to see a grown Hobbit cry :}
GwaihirValar: Folco Boffin, indeed a hobbit
ArPharazonV: ah, right
VardaValar1: He can come in while on DAoC
VardaValar1: Turgon used to do that
ArPharazonV: I think I met him in the Fellowship-game... the hobbit, that is, not the guildmember
ArPharazonV: well, I've been playing WoS mostly, the last few days
VardaValar1: Is anyone in Bnet?
ArPharazonV: not me
VardaValar1: Please tap Arathorn on the shoulder and tell him we need him
Musics4Me2: I could be
Musics4Me2: want me to get over there?
ArPharazonV: my pc sometimes crashes in bnet.... I don't want to risk being thrown out of the meeting
VardaValar1: If no one is there right now, I can try it
Eonwe Valar: Btw, another little tidbit,.. I tried WotR on my computer,.. and its soo beautiful :} I should've sent a poet (oh wait, I am a poet) :}
Eonwe Valar: my *new* computer that is :}
VardaValar1: You get to do a poem again!
Shaggyjoe: hmm
Shaggyjoe: is that better?
ArPharazonV: yes, better
VardaValar1: Easier to read, aye
Shaggyjoe: okay
Shaggyjoe: sorry
Shaggyjoe: I am a poet as well.
Eonwe Valar: No lag, very little wait for loading :}
VardaValar1: Great! Send some Tolkien-inspired to us : )
Shaggyjoe: in fact if i could live off of berries and live under an elm tree writing poetry for the rest of my life I would be content.
VardaValar1: Plant the berries and get comfy!
Shaggyjoe: I will have to pull the sil to find inspiration..
VardaValar1: or LotR
VardaValar1: or Hobbit
VardaValar1: Any of them will get to you : )
Shaggyjoe: <laughs> indeed.
Shaggyjoe: however the sil is less spoken of, therefore my poem will be more influential to those who have to research it.
Shaggyjoe: to find its mean... ect.
Shaggyjoe: ing*
VardaValar1: How about both : )
Shaggyjoe: or I can do that.
Shaggyjoe: : )
VardaValar1: Check out the News page now and then. We had a fresh batch of poems
Shaggyjoe: that I do do.
Shaggyjoe: err.r
Shaggyjoe: <sighs> im feeling goofy.
VardaValar1: Great! Did you see the latest ones?
VardaValar1: I don't see Arathorn on D2X
VardaValar1: Maybe the three accounts of his on my friend list are the wrong ones
VardaValar1: Then you are in the right place, if you feel goofy : )
ArPharazonV: I checked out the new humor-link, though
Eonwe Valar: Tapping Arathorn's shoulder :}
VardaValar1: Gwaihir, you are in D2X too
VardaValar1: Thanks Eonwe
Musics4Me2: quite a full house for pre meeting
ArPharazonV: I love the one with the christmas tree...
ArPharazonV: and the roadsign is cool too
Eonwe Valar: hmm what was his account name?
VardaValar1: heh - I have three of them not showing him
ArPharazonV: One eye to see them all One eye to find them One eye to keep them close And in the shadows blind them
ArPharazonV: nice
VardaValar1: aye, he's good
VardaValar1: And he has another one in my email pile to put up : )]
ArPharazonV: heh
VardaValar1: about Mim, wrote last night
ArPharazonV: cool
VardaValar1: Arathorn's back
VardaValar1: He was in D2X HC
ArPharazonV: does anybody here listen to Nightwish?
ElatanValar: Grab him, grab him
VardaValar1: hehe
GilraenV: Me... or rather, the whole three songs on the music chanels over here
ArPharazonV: you know, I'll rephrase that
ArPharazonV: does anybody here like listening to Nightwish?
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: does anybody here ever listen to Nightwish?
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Arwen V1: yes
GilraenV: Me. Again. Still :-P
Arwen V1: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Arwen : )
Arwen V1: =) Aiya
GwaihirValar: heh
Eonwe Valar: D2 not installed on this computer or I'd go hunting Valar games for him
ArathornValar: Grimbold and I did the WoW beta test a few weeks ago... I wrote up a little review on it (see the news page for link)... was quite addictive :P
VardaValar1: yes, Bilbo and Eowyn listen to Nightwish, so I do sometimes
ArPharazonV: what are your favorite songs, from Nightwish?
Shaggyjoe: invite Agentpuma21
ElatanValar: Dont have D2 anymore. weep weep weep, what has become of my fine sorceress
VardaValar1: Pardon, in several other windows
ThorondorV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
ThorondorV: Heya all
Agentpuma21 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: I think your fine sorceress has been wiped from existance
VardaValar1: Hail
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ThorondorV: Am I still yellow, by the way? :-)
Agentpuma21: aiya folks
GwaihirValar: orange now
ElatanValar: and then more weeping :/
GwaihirValar: to my comp
VardaValar1: Orange name, just fine
ArPharazonV: now Gwaihir is yellow
VardaValar1: Aiya : )
ThorondorV: I reinstalled windows and aim as well, that must have changed it
Elwing V has entered the room.
Agentpuma21: sorry, but i must depart, going on a trip
Agentpuma21: just stoppin in to say hi
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Hi
Agentpuma21: hope to speak with you all soon
ArPharazonV: and Namarie to the other..
ElatanValar: have a nice trip :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarei
ThorondorV: Namarie..
Agentpuma21: namarie
VardaValar1: Namarie
Agentpuma21 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: hey, where's Turgon's 'typo'?
Eonwe Valar: Arathorn is here :}
ArPharazonV: where is Turgon anyway? haven't seen him online for days
ArPharazonV: guess he doesn't have the laptop available anymore
Eonwe Valar: Tried PMing him through AIM since it's been dragging me out of WC3 screen mod when I get a PM
VardaValar1: ouch
ArPharazonV: now who do I share my WoS experiences with? :-(
Shaggyjoe: WoS?
ArPharazonV: well of souls
VardaValar1: How about Arathorn? : )
Elwing V has left the room.
ArPharazonV: does he have it?
ArPharazonV: the only ones in the guild I'm sure of that they have it are Turg and Orodreth
Elwing V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
VardaValar1: You made it, Elwing : )
ElatanValar: yes how about him :-) Arathoooorn
Elwing V: Must have got caught in a wind vortex
Eonwe Valar: He's here :}
VardaValar1: No doubt
Musics4Me2: you know the WoS specs offhand anyone?
Eonwe Valar: We were just talking about WoW beta :}
ArPharazonV: I could look up the site for you
Musics4Me2: would be nice of you Phar :-)
ArPharazonV: htm
Elwing V has left the room.
ArPharazonV: it's free (unless you want to buy a golden soul, with extra features), it's small (compared to Blizzard's games) and it's fun
ArPharazonV: you can create your own worlds, characters, classes, and quests... or download loads of worlds from the internet
ArPharazonV: 1 world, Evergreen, automatically comes with the download, and is of course the most popular world played
Musics4Me2: ah, and it runs on my old IBM 200 MHz :-)
ArPharazonV: I've got Evergreen, aerianell, and rot (forgot what rot stands for)
Elwing V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiyata, nr. 2
ArPharazonV: been trying to finish evergreen again the last few weeks, and already starting to be able to defeat the strongest monsters on the map, with much help from my pet
Elwing V: Blown hither and yon in here :-)
VardaValar1: Poor bird
Elwing V: A few less feathers I think
ArPharazonV: you can tame or buy a pet in the game, and train him to become a powerful asset to your gameplay...
ArPharazonV: I bought a lvl 10 pet soon after starting with my new char, and already have him trained to lvl 84, out of 99
ArPharazonV: his attributes (strength, stamina etc) are already veeery close to the maximum, 3 of the 5 attributes are already at 100 %
VardaValar1: Guess we should start inviting
ArPharazonV: I can already defeat lvl 125 monsters with relative ease....
ArPharazonV: just need to get my char to lvl 99 or 100, so I can wear the best equipment in the game, the soul armor/weapons
ArPharazonV: ok, enough game-talk from me...
VardaValar1: We need inviters. Eonwe, are you handling that?
Eonwe Valar: checking out who needs invited as we speak
DaeTPringl has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Nice to see you, Eowyn : )
DaeTPringl: hail
ThorondorV: Heya heya
DaeTPringl: Nice to see you as well
DaeTPringl: I really am going to get myself an Eowyn name for this IM chat...eventually
ElatanValar: Hello Shieldmaid
Eonwe Valar: everyone on my list has an invitation except Galdor and Huan, both of whom can't recieve them
Eonwe Valar: Heya Eowyn :}
DaeTPringl: Thanks for all they heyas :-)
Shaggyjoe: Heya! I was afk.
Shaggyjoe: how are you?
Shaggyjoe: wonder why its still bold
Shaggyjoe: <sighs>
ArPharazonV: what's wrong with bold?
ArPharazonV: hey, different type
Shaggyjoe: yeah mine is comic sans.. I like more relax'd looking text. : )
ArPharazonV: I kinda like this too... although it's sometimes hard to read
Shaggyjoe: indeeed it is
Musics4Me2: I like Lucia Grande for.... everything (I even have it set to override all of yours heh)
VardaValar1: Announcement:
VardaValar1: Thorondor will be chairing the meeting today
ArPharazonV: and this isn't even the tilted version...
VardaValar1: We three Valar are going to sneak out for a test
GwaihirValar: Good luck to the testee!
ArPharazonV: hey, this is odd.. I thought I changed the font back
Eonwe Valar: *rubs hands together and smiles menacingly* :}
ThorondorV: Good luck to the potential :-)
Elwing V: To the torture room they go :-)
ThorondorV: Meeting begins:
ThorondorV: Elen sila lumenn omentielvo
VardaValar1: Someone please save chat
ArPharazonV: darn, can't get back the real font
ElatanValar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: oh, come on... this is redicilous... nothing works
ArPharazonV: *ridi
ThorondorV: Membership news: I don't know has the new Tolkien-only member has been mentioned yet, but HeThatWalksUnseen-TV is a new in our ranks
ThorondorV: Our membership currently snands at 126.
ThorondorV: Stands*
ThorondorV: Any further member news, fellows?
ArPharazonV: darn, gonna restart the program, perhaps that helps
ArPharazonV: guess the first part of the meeting doesn't come from me
ArPharazonV has left the room.
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: ok, normal font back
ArPharazonV: what did I miss?
Elwing V: nothing...pretty quick in and out
ArPharazonV: thnx

ThorondorV: Web news..
ThorondorV: He that Walks Unseen-(TV) has written new material. (Note from Varda - link goes to all his poetry)
ArPharazonV: wait... three Valar? who else besides Eonwe and Varda?
ThorondorV: Down the Tunnel in Erebor
ThorondorV: And Gorthaur the Cruel
GwaihirValar: Elatan went, I believe
Elwing V: (if he is do you know hes walking? ) :-)
ThorondorV: The man has been really active, and the quality of his works is admirable
ThorondorV: I recommend :-)
ArPharazonV: ('cause he said so himself)
GwaihirValar: just because he's unseen, doesn't mean he's unheard ;-)
Shaggyjoe has left the room.
GwaihirValar: or unfelt
GwaihirValar: or, although we hope he is, unsmelt

ThorondorV: About gaming: What I know from the news-pages, Arathorn has the highest d2x-character, his assasin is now lvl 87.
ArPharazonV: congrats, Arathorn!
ThorondorV: Any other things you want to discuss about gaming?
ArPharazonV: another web-thing, first
Elwing V: I have "inside news" he is 88 now
ArPharazonV: the new humor-link?
ThorondorV: Ah, thanks
ThorondorV: There really is a link to a tolkien-humor pages
ThorondorV: Mostly visual humor (note from Varda - The Valar Guild has both visual and text humor pages linked to each other, plus links to others on the text page. Index links to text humor under Tolkien Enyclopedia.)
ThorondorV: Here's the URL if you're interested:
Elwing V: like cartoons?
ThorondorV: Yeah, cartoons and humoristic pictures
ThorondorV: Arathorn has found a free WoW-type game, the web adress to the pages is
DaeTPringl: I've seen the cartoons on that page before--funny.
TheodenValar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: hahaha.... just saw the lotr/x-men crossover
ArPharazonV: gandalf's worst nightmare
ThorondorV: I don't know much about that kind of games, though, maybe Arathorn can tell you more if you're interested
Elwing V: Is game free for good, or just limited 'try-out" time?
ThorondorV: They run it through donations, it seems, so you don't have to pay anything..
ThorondorV: Might be interesting
Arwen V1: cool!
Elwing V: so may become a need-to-pay game later (if donations don't cover costs)
ThorondorV: Hmm, anything you want to add to the gaming news?
ThorondorV: If you have Diablo ladder updates, email the information to Varda
ArPharazonV: hmm... there appears to be some discussion about WoW servers, I think I read today
ArPharazonV: has something to do with Europeans playing on American servers, and different release times...
Xseanzee disco has left the room.
ThorondorV: Hmm, maybe I should learn some new games too :-) I'm a bit too much Diablo-oriented
ArPharazonV: I hope it doesn't end up with me not getting on the American servers, I wouldn't be able to join the guildbranch there
V Beregond has entered the room.
ThorondorV: Heya Beregond
V Beregond: Heya ^_^
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: I have a feeling it will all turn out right... I hope
ThorondorV: Tolkien:
ThorondorV: I already mentioned in the web-news about the story by HeThatWalksUnseen
ThorondorV: He has written several poems as well, the links are in the news-page
ArPharazonV: html omg the expression is priceless...
ThorondorV: Turgon has written a poem as well, called Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Nice job Turgon. (Note: link is to Turgon's poems)

ThorondorV: Any chat-suggestions?
ThorondorV: Anything? :-)
ArPharazonV: thinking...
ArPharazonV: well, there's always one or two backup-topics to back up to...
ArPharazonV: 'Do Balrogs have wings?'
ArPharazonV: 'Who's Tom Bombadil?'
GwaihirValar: ahhh noooooooo
GwaihirValar: ;-)
ThorondorV: Yeah, the forever-questions :-)
HearNoEvil80 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
HearNoEvil80: Aiya..sorry been taking care of some orphaned kittens....will be back and forth.
ArPharazonV: you got a Tolkien-topic, by any chance?
ThorondorV: Heya, no worries
HearNoEvil80: No sorry, not at thist ime.
HearNoEvil80: time*
ArPharazonV: or the question of questions... what did Illuvatar do to spend his time before deciding to create the Ainur?
Elwing V: lots of thumb-twidling, no doubt :-)
ArPharazonV: we could ask the same thing about modern gods, though
ArPharazonV: what did God do before creating the universe?
GwaihirValar: not exist... the same as he does now ;-)
V Beregond: hear, hear
ArPharazonV: heh
V Beregond: and you talk of the universe as if there's only one
ThorondorV: Was Eru described as an omnipotent being? Or was the power only limited?
V Beregond: there might be others
GwaihirValar: Eru was never really described ata ll..
ArPharazonV: what, you think God created multiple universes?
GwaihirValar: it was implied that he was Omniscient
GwaihirValar: no... he believes that other universes exist... I think he, likes me, does not believe god exists at all
ThorondorV: The flame imperishable suggests that yes
V Beregond: I'm certainly not discounting the possibility there might be other universes, no
GwaihirValar: may exist*
GwaihirValar: Well, more of the way he reacted to Morgoth
ArPharazonV: I don't really believe in other universes... or a god, for that matter
V Beregond: i do not believe in a god in the manner that the bible demands
Musics4Me2: I do not believe in a god(s) either heh
V Beregond: I think there might be something very powerful out there, but thinking it created the earth\us, is being just a little bit arrogant
GwaihirValar: Morgoth's attempts at discord were met not with surprise but with the saying(or very similar to this) "Know that even your actions are foreknown by me"
ArPharazonV: 1 being, omnipotent, all-knowing, all-seeing...
ArPharazonV: I just don't buy it
ThorondorV: Hmm, Eru saw far in the future when the world was formed, do you think he saw the havoc of Morgoth as well, only accepting it?
V Beregond: me neither
Elwing V: Many interpretations when assigning humanistic feelings/motivations
V Beregond: power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely :P
GwaihirValar: Beregond, that is only applicable to humanity.
V Beregond: how can you be so sure of that?
V Beregond: have we any other reasonably intelligent races to with which to compare?
ArPharazonV: I find it hard to believe one sentient being could not only create the universe and the earth, but actually foresee and plan everything happening in/on it
Elwing V: for people with base instincts that still exist...if one could achieve perfection of purity, perhaps that one could have absolute power without corruption
GwaihirValar: Are we really so arrogant as to believe that we could even recognize intelligence
V Beregond: good question
GwaihirValar: For example... do we REALLY know that animals aren't intelligent?
ThorondorV: I believe that the Valar would have been warned about M's intentions of breeding the Orcs for example, if Eru had known
Musics4Me2: agreed, but perhaps it isn't arrogance, perhaps ignorance or stupidity?
ArPharazonV: Why would Eru even permit Melkor to make such horrid beings out of his own 'personal projects'?
Musics4Me2: freedom
GwaihirValar: perhaps they're so far beyond our so-called intelligence that they merely humour us
Musics4Me2: IMHO the ultimate gift
ArPharazonV: Freedom to his Children, or to Melkor?
GwaihirValar: to everyone.
Elwing V: fate versus choice
ArPharazonV: and did Melkor's freedom not prevent the freedom of the Children?
GwaihirValar: It was not his place to intervene anymore
Elwing V: if fate was all to it, then evil ones were fated so, and that seems cruel
Elwing V: not to have a choice to choose good instead
V Beregond: I choose not to believe in fate
GwaihirValar: I believe fate exists to some extent
V Beregond: but mayhap I'm fated to believe it ^^;
GwaihirValar: that certain things are fated
V Beregond: such as?
GwaihirValar: I can't claim to know that
ArPharazonV: Oh lord... not this discussion again
GwaihirValar: but I do believe that some things in each life are meant to happen...
VardaValar1: Let's keep to Tolkien's world. Might help
V Beregond: haha
Elwing V: Certain outcomes to things, tho how achieved may be up to individual choices
V Beregond: good point there Varda ^_^
ThorondorV: Welcome back
VardaValar1: You can talk about real world beliefs in After-meeting ; )
V Beregond: hihi
GwaihirValar: we've sorta melded the two ;-)
VardaValar1: Not really back. Just peeking
GwaihirValar: aftermeeting and Tolkien chat
GwaihirValar: it sorta flits back and forth between Tolkien and real world... hehe
V Beregond: but it's so easy to merge the two
Eonwe Valar: It's not power that corrupts, it's the lust and misuse of power. Manwë was quite powerful, and yet he was not corrupt.
VardaValar1: You might keep it to Tolkien to keep from hurting feelings
GwaihirValar: Exactly, greed is the cause of corruption, I believe...
GwaihirValar: not power itself
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth lusted for power, and he became corrupt
ArPharazonV: example: me!
V Beregond: haha
V Beregond: wonderful example ^_^
GwaihirValar: Another reason it's good to be an Eagle...
GwaihirValar: ;-)
ArPharazonV: I still say his lust for power made him more human than most I've read about in Tolkien
Eonwe Valar: Or is it that man's lust for power made him more like Morgoth?
ArPharazonV: greed and ambition is part of human nature, it's why we developed to the rulers of the world in the first place, in real life that is
Musics4Me2: and opposable thumbs...
Elwing V: ambition can be a good thing
Eonwe Valar: greed and ambition should hardly be grouped together
ArPharazonV: ambition's result often leads to disaster
Elwing V: in the sense you would try to better yourself
GwaihirValar: ambition is a good thing in many circumstances
Musics4Me2: aye
Elwing V: problems when ones idea of "better" conflicts with another's
ArPharazonV: I use ambition in the sense of trying to better yourself in order to become more powerful than others
GwaihirValar: that's one form
ArPharazonV: and that's the ambition that put us on top of the foodchain
ThorondorV: I let the robe to fall on your shoulders, Eönwe.. I have to get some sleep now
ArPharazonV: and that's the ambition that started so many wars on this planet
Eonwe Valar: Well, I'm still not quite here, but sleep well :}
GwaihirValar: goodnight Thorondor
ArPharazonV: and that's the ambition that led to the destruction of Numenor...
GilraenV: namarie
ArPharazonV: goodnight
ThorondorV: Ah, ok. Goodnight all
ArPharazonV: Namarei
ThorondorV has left the room.
V Beregond: I'm off as well, I must be up again in 6 hours ^^;
ArPharazonV: Namarei as well
ArPharazonV: I need to get up in 11 hours ;-)
V Beregond: I bid thee all farewell ^_^
GilraenV: namaire
V Beregond has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Namarei, Beregond
Elwing V: Farewell all dreamers!
DaeTPringl: Namarie
Musics4Me2: farewell
ArPharazonV: who's leaving now?
ArPharazonV: whoever it is, Namarei to that person
Elwing V: (I think I made my well wishes a bit late...oops)
Musics4Me2: heh, my farewell, however late it was, was directed to Beregond :P
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV: striving for immortality, is that greed or ambition?
Musics4Me2: anyhow, I'm off to find dinner, afk
Elwing V: in what sense...leaving a legacy?
GwaihirValar: no, in the sense of what his character did :-)
ArPharazonV: yup, that
ArPharazonV: what Gwai said
GwaihirValar: that's a combination of arrogance, ambition, and foolishness...
ArPharazonV: all 3 delivered to him through human nature, his ancestry, and the unwise council of Sauron
ArPharazonV: ancestry as in background
Eonwe Valar: that's hubris
ArPharazonV: environment
GwaihirValar: And his personality
ArPharazonV: perhaps that as well... although I can, in a way, understand his actions
Elwing V: refresh my sad memory - who do we speak of?
ArPharazonV: Pharazon the Golden
ArPharazonV: my char :-)
GwaihirValar: the evil human councilled by Sauron to attack Valinor...
ArPharazonV: I still think evil is just a bit too big a word... but I'm done convincing you of that
Elwing V: *sneaks around behind his back to say nasty things :-) *
ArPharazonV: it's hopeless
GwaihirValar: hehe
GwaihirValar: I still think anything less than evil is too small of a word... but I can't convince YOU of that either... so...
GwaihirValar: it works both ways ;-)
ArPharazonV: yup
ArPharazonV: you think you're right, and so am I ;-)
GwaihirValar: hehe

After meeting:
Musics4Me2: sigh, it's cold in here...
ArPharazonV: where are you?
Celebrimbor V has entered the room.
Celebrimbor V: aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Celebrimbor V: sorry I'm late, just got off work
ArPharazonV: well, you're just in time
ArPharazonV: to throw in a new subject, this one's run out
Celebrimbor V: lol well
TheodenValar: Well I got to get some sleep now, good night all
GilraenV: goodnight
TheodenValar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: so, refresh my knowledge of the news
ArPharazonV: how's Ivan doing?
VardaValar1: Aiya Celebrimbor
VardaValar1: Sorry missed Theoden
Celebrimbor V: aiya Varda
ArPharazonV: well?
ArPharazonV: that hurricane still alive?
GwaihirValar: was it ever? ;-)
ArPharazonV: ...
ArPharazonV: you know exactly what I mean
GilraenV has left the room.
GilraenV has entered the room.
GilraenV: I hate my computer....
GwaihirValar: *hugs comfortingly* it's evil...
GilraenV: yes. and not the good evil :-(
Arwen V1: I have to run to the dinning hall to get foodies, I'll see you later! Namarie!
Elwing V: good evil ? that sounds....interesting
GwaihirValar: It is... very interesting *Grins*
Eonwe Valar: bon apetit :}
ArPharazonV: :-)
Elwing V: like the "villian you love to hate" ? :-)
GwaihirValar: nah...
Arwen V1 has left the room.
GwaihirValar: that's still the bad evil
GwaihirValar: :-)
ArPharazonV: that part of human nature that embraces evil and it's potential uses
Elwing V: but you don't want him killed off because hes such a "good " villain :-)
GwaihirValar: hehe
GwaihirValar: true
GwaihirValar: anyways, I think it's time to eat, so I'll be back later
DaeTPringl: Namarie, Gwaihir
ArPharazonV: namarei
GwaihirValar: farewell!
Elwing V: Bleah
Elwing V: try again
ArPharazonV: what/
ArPharazonV: ?
Elwing V: I must be thinking too hard...
Elwing V: outdid the computer!
GilraenV: hehe
Elwing V: Ok again: here's a question just for funsies: (have to do in parts)...
Elwing V: if we use "good" and "bad" as opposites,
Elwing V: but also "good" and "evil" as opposites...
ArPharazonV: are bad and evil the same thing?
Elwing V: how come we have a term for baddest bad (evil hee) but not for best good (or is my memory just shot again :-) )
Elwing V: have one but I can't think of it
ArPharazonV: kind?
ArPharazonV: good is kindest kind?
Elwing V: I think of evil as bad that cannot or will not change for better or be remorseful about it
ArPharazonV: well, that could fit...
Elwing V: (this is just my interpretation...not an expert by any means)
ArPharazonV: in that case, I see Pharazon more as bad than as evil... the change just hadn't come yet by the time he invaded Valinor
Elwing V: so good is one that attempts it but there should be better term for one that consistently achieves it
ArPharazonV: heroic?
Musics4Me2: impossible? :P
Elwing V: just talking terms here, not actual achievment :-)
VardaValar1: divine? :-)
Musics4Me2: if it's impossible, then why have a word for it? I mean.... we could have words for nonexistant things, but what fun is that ;-)
ArPharazonV: like... immortality?
ArPharazonV: purity?
ArPharazonV: god?
Musics4Me2: yes, like those
VardaValar1: Perhaps, then, they are existent. : )
Musics4Me2: *ducks to avoid flaimage :P*
Elwing V: possibility of things existing that we are unaware of
Elwing V: like (somewhat related) read a couple days ago of scientist who "discovered" new species of rat
ArPharazonV: more like hope of things existing that we are unaware of
VardaValar1: Aye, the "new" rat was always there. We just didn't know
ArPharazonV: well, they could be new
GwaihirValar: I'm back for a minute..
ArPharazonV: recently evolved
GwaihirValar: I found a VERY good definition of evil in "Arrow's Fall" by Mercedes Lackey...
Elwing V: we have imagination to work towards goals that were before thought not to be attainable (or "exist") so may have terms for them when we do "creat" them
ArPharazonV: however, if it can already be recognized as a new species...
ArPharazonV: the genetic split probably happened much longer ago
GwaihirValar: basically, it comes down to "Evil is a form of all-consuming greed"
GwaihirValar: but anyways, I'm off for a little while again
Elwing V: of course, the terms for "good", "evil", etc are for (partly) emotional behaviors, and emotions are very hard to pin down to tangible concepts...
Elwing V: look how much trouble it is for someone to define "love" :-)
Musics4Me2: I don't quite know what is, so I just avoid it :P
ArPharazonV: yes... reminds me of my inquiry a few meetings ago
ArPharazonV: the distinguishment between obsession and love
ArPharazonV: I once heard a comment about that: if love goes only 1 way, it's obsession
ArPharazonV: but that just doesn't seem right to me
Elwing V: could just be persistence if object of attention is not already commited to someone else
Elwing V: lots of factors to take in
Celebrimbor V: well folks, I'm falling asleep at the keyboard lol...I'm so tired from work
Musics4Me2: *dopamine + brain = love?*
DaeTPringl: I'm going to go eat something. Namarie everyone!
VardaValar1: Nighty night, Cel : )
ArPharazonV: I never pursue (no, pursue, not stalk) my 'objects of attention', as you so delicately put it, if they are already committed to someone else... I just feel bad about ruining something like that
DaeTPringl has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Namarei
ArPharazonV: and yet, I don't immediately jump in after a break-up... I don't want to swoop in at such moments of vulnerability
ArPharazonV: it's just pushy, and the other can end up doing things she (she, in my case) could regret afterwards
Celebrimbor V: namarie
Celebrimbor V has left the room.
ArPharazonV: so, basically, I wait for certain windows of opportunity that never seem to appear...
ArPharazonV: and that's why I've been single now for 5 years and 5 days :-(
Musics4Me2: hm..... you can't succeed if you never try
Musics4Me2: and you only live once
Musics4Me2: and a penny saved is a penny earned....
Musics4Me2: but that might not apply :P
Elwing V: Sheesh, I've got you way beat on being single...:-)
ArPharazonV: true, but if you try at the wrong moments
Musics4Me2: I've been single 14 years :P
Elwing V: but it is by choice on my part
Musics4Me2: all my life actually...
Musics4Me2: darn
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: you have a big chance of hurting her instead of making her happy
ArPharazonV: anyway, 5 years may not seem that long
Musics4Me2: well, 14 seems like a long time hehe
Musics4Me2: btw: this after meeting?
ArPharazonV: but when you've loved your ex for 4 years afterwards, and still heavily miss the principle of the relationship itself, it seems a lot longer...
ArPharazonV: I was 14, now I'm 19
ArPharazonV: and in a way, I still miss her
Elwing V: Gee, I was 14 once too...and 19...and............... :-)
ArPharazonV: ...
Musics4Me2: I'll be 15 in a month or so, yay?
ArPharazonV: congrats
Elwing V: missing is not bad, if you don't get overwhelmed with it
Elwing V: life goes on!
Musics4Me2: dunno if I want to get older heh. I don't want more responsibilities...
VardaValar1: You're out of luck, there, Farmer. The alternative is worse though ; )
ArPharazonV: seeing as I still keep the date of the breakup in my memory, I think I need to cling to that statement more, Elwing
Elwing V: when you get older, you get to delegate some of those responsibilities to younger ones :-)
VardaValar1: Right!
Musics4Me2: ah, but death may or may not be worse.... it's an interesting thing
ArPharazonV: meh, I don't really look forward to death
ArPharazonV: but I'm not afraid of it either
VardaValar1: I stand corrected, Farmer. Should have said it a diff way
ArPharazonV: it either happens, or it doesn't
VardaValar1: I think it will happen : )
ArPharazonV: if it doesn't, I'm happy..
ArPharazonV: if it does, I won't care :-)
Musics4Me2: I'm not scared of death, nothing I can do to stop it
ArPharazonV: and there is a lingering hope in my mind of a destiny of immortality... of godhood
ArPharazonV: guess I'm like Pharazon, in that way :-)
Elwing V: well, up to a point anyway (look both ways before crossing street!)
Musics4Me2: heh, I do not want to live forever
ArPharazonV: I don't want to live forever... I want to be able to live forever
VardaValar1: Depends on what you think "you' are
Musics4Me2: If you have an infinite ammount of time, you can do an infinite ammount of things, meaning eventually you'd do everything... and then you'd be bored forever
VardaValar1: If you think you are a body or a soul
ArPharazonV: meaning: I want the power to keep myself alive through eternity, and when I want to die, I can just do so
Elwing V: but new things to do keep coming up
Musics4Me2: I am a bunch of chemicals that by some means can 'think' :P
VardaValar1: Upgrading skills and adding new for new ones keep coming up
Musics4Me2: but still, with an infinite ammount of time, everything can be done
ArPharazonV: there was at least one thing I was hoping for, although it may seem a little cruel to the rest of the planet...
ArPharazonV: I want to be the last human alive
VardaValar1: That would imply also infinite ability and knowledge and ability to travel
VardaValar1: Sounds lonely
Musics4Me2: lack of ability can be overcome
Musics4Me2: with enough practice, etc
ArPharazonV: I want to live long enough to witness the fall of human civilization, wander the world for a while to see what happens afterward, and die in peace after that...
Musics4Me2: I want to live to see world peace or simply a massive change to the US Gov't
Musics4Me2: but neither of those is likely
VardaValar1: How about watching humanity go to the stars and colonize them
ArPharazonV: I believe world peace doesn't last forever, not as long as 2 or more people are still around
Musics4Me2: World peace all has to do with our culture
ArPharazonV: I just want to witness the Fall
VardaValar1: Depends on what you think peace is
Elwing V: I'd like to see us pull a real "star trek" ...find new worlds and new civilizations...
VardaValar1: I want to see the Rise : )
Musics4Me2: Acceptence, not Tolerance
Musics4Me2: and the US hasn't even achieved full tolerance
ArPharazonV: if I can conclude anything from the last few hundreds of thousands of years...
VardaValar1: The US is a collection of everything else
ArPharazonV: peace never lasts
VardaValar1: Always a war going somewhere
Musics4Me2: but still, the US is not accepting, or tolerating. /me points to the issue of same sex marraige
ArPharazonV: there will always be competition
ArPharazonV: always the bad kind of ambition
Musics4Me2: competition doesn't mean not peace
ArPharazonV: always unrest and unfair dividance of resources
Musics4Me2: it *is* attainable IMHO
Musics4Me2: perhaps I'm too idealistic, but oh well
ArPharazonV: peace leads to boredom, boredom leads to unrest, unrest leads to war
ArPharazonV: the true morale of the story of the Fourth AGe
Musics4Me2: not always true, there has always been peace in my villiage
ArPharazonV: it never ends...
VardaValar1: When you say the US is not accepting those things, you point at only a part of the people
Musics4Me2: true Varda
VardaValar1: And do we really have to accept everything?
ArPharazonV: and the people who are not part of that part of the people
Musics4Me2: I would think so
ArPharazonV: do they accept the ones who are that part of the people?
Musics4Me2: but your def. of accepting might differ heh
ArPharazonV: as long as 2 people have absolute freedom, they'll always get in each other's way
Musics4Me2: perhaps
VardaValar1: I begin to see why you have trouble with the girls : )
Elwing V: inactivity rather than peace brings boredom; if people think peace means never having to exert themselves in anyway, it probably will never come.
ArPharazonV: lol
Musics4Me2: heh
Musics4Me2: yeah, they don't like politics...
VardaValar1: Sometimes it's fun to get in each other's way
Musics4Me2: *darn*
VardaValar1: Tell that to Hillary?
Musics4Me2: well, the ones around here
Musics4Me2: :P
ArPharazonV: sometimes it is fun to get in each other's way
ArPharazonV: but often, it's not
Elwing V: that's when you do that "hallway dance' thing ")
ArPharazonV: your freedom ends where the other's freedom start
Musics4Me2: yes
ArPharazonV: *starts
VardaValar1: Your freedom and the other person's freedom are the same thing : )
ArPharazonV: not if your goals differ
Musics4Me2: but your freedom cannot interfer with another's freedom
Musics4Me2: ex: murder
Musics4Me2: you'd be interfering with that person's freedom to live
VardaValar1: Helps to have similar codes
ArPharazonV: and because everybody is unique, nobody will have the exact same goals
Musics4Me2: yes, a messy subject indeed, but it *is* possible IMHO
ArPharazonV: I doubt it... unless humanity undergoes a massive genetic change which takes away that bad kind of ambition
VardaValar1: If you want to get along, you can
VardaValar1: If you don't want to, you probably won't
Elwing V: that's what rules and laws for, to set limits so everyone can have basic freedoms without infringing on others (at least that is the idea, doesn;t always work quite that well)
Musics4Me2: aye Elwing, but sometimes laws are *too* constricting
GwaihirValar: organized religion: the cause of the world's greatest problems... combined with the fear of the unknown...
Musics4Me2: yes
Musics4Me2: and FUD
Elwing V: true, that's what I mean...we're not perfect :-)
ArPharazonV: FUD?
Musics4Me2: fear, uncertainty, and doubt
VardaValar1: So we work to make the best we can
VardaValar1: If we just give up and say we can't live together, it will be true
ArPharazonV: but there is always a little part of you that sees the other people as rivals to your goals and your freedom
VardaValar1: If you can find a way to have friends, you can manage : )
Musics4Me2: I dunno, perhaps I'm an idealist, but I have no grudges against anyone, and I have no prejudgice
ArPharazonV: you guys are my friends, but we don't agree with everything
Musics4Me2: (AFAIK, I hope so :-))
Musics4Me2: right
Musics4Me2: but we're peaceful
Elwing V: so we're not boring right? :-)
ArPharazonV: no, of course not
VardaValar1: It would be boring to agree on all : )
Musics4Me2: not usually ;-). no
ArPharazonV: though if these meetings lasted 24/7, who knows...
VardaValar1: Elwing and I agreed on that one! We happen to be best buds
VardaValar1: They don't last 24/7? ;-)
Musics4Me2: if we were all the same, and all agreed, our civ. would not survive
ArPharazonV: well, I don't know about you guys
Elwing V: 24/7 meetings, you'd be getting verbage like: q8ijdaNZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ :-)
Musics4Me2: because we need different people to advance, new ideas, different skills
ArPharazonV: but there are times I like to take myself away from Middleearth
VardaValar1: Like you have been for the last hour? ; )
ArPharazonV: real life, Arda, Azeroth, Tamriel... there is no world I would want to be in 24/7
ArPharazonV: lol
Musics4Me2: I agree Phar
Musics4Me2: I enjoy sleep as an 'escape'
ArPharazonV: right
ArPharazonV: dreams are my most pleasant experiences, often
Musics4Me2: or engrossing myself in the computer (the virtual world)
Elwing V: do you recall most of your dreams?
Elwing V: I don't with mine
ArPharazonV: I partly recall them
Musics4Me2: I oft do not dream, but it is still a pleasant thing
ArPharazonV: if I wake up from them
Elwing V: the few I do are interesting but not spectacular by any means
Elwing V: except a rare case or two :-)
ArPharazonV: there are times my mind flows away during the day, when I drift to another world
ArPharazonV: and I snap back into the real world, and more time has past than I had expected
Elwing V: daydreams...the elven way to sleep!
ArPharazonV: *passed
Musics4Me2: I like politics...... finding flaws in the US's system of gov't, and thinking of how to fix them
Musics4Me2: to better society and life
Musics4Me2: and yes, my life :P
ArPharazonV: I don't like politics... no matter who you vote for, it never works out
ArPharazonV: let's see... you pro-bush or against-bush?
Musics4Me2: Mostly against his ideas
Musics4Me2: I'm a liberal, he's a conservative :P
ArPharazonV: sigh
ArPharazonV: I mean
ArPharazonV: if you look at his actions in his first term
Elwing V: I am pro-bush because there aren't nearly enough of them or trees around....oh, that's not what you meant... :-)
Musics4Me2: I would not vote for him, if that's what you mean
ArPharazonV: war against Irak, presumably for oil
ArPharazonV: indiscriminate actions against potential terrorists
GilraenV: something that amused me on the news today
Musics4Me2: there is no perfect candidate unfort., Nader is a good option, but I dislike Affirmitave Action
GilraenV: tony blair referring to the iraq war
Musics4Me2: he's in hot water it seems heh
ArPharazonV: and still he has a huge following, and in the lead in the polls...
GilraenV: ... the war on saddam is over, now it is time to start the war on terrorism
GilraenV: or something like that
ArPharazonV: sometimes I wonder... are Americans truly that close-minded?
GilraenV: ... but I thought the official excuse of Iraq was that it was PART of the war on terrorism?
GwaihirValar: I'm against Americans who think Canada is to the south being in power.
GilraenV: *for
Musics4Me2: I am not closed minded, but the majority of the people I'm around are (one of my best friends is a staunch conservative, even though he doesn't know any of the issues)
GwaihirValar: I'm sorry... it's not exactly a HARD concept: Canada North, Mexico South... if Bush can't keep THAT straight... he doesn't deserve to run a country
ArPharazonV: lol
Musics4Me2: heh
ArPharazonV: and how about those elections, full of show
Musics4Me2: aye, and the electoral college...
Musics4Me2: bah
ArPharazonV: I mean... a famous actor, running his campaign on a movie-career and a few quotes... how can Schwarzy be that popular?
Elwing V: the system could be better certainly, but it still is better than some others going on
GwaihirValar: Schwarzy is popular because he is FAR more intelligent than he seems
ArPharazonV: right, of course he is
Musics4Me2: on the news, they never even *MENTIONED* his stance on the issues
ArPharazonV: but he doesn't act like it in the elections, it seems
Musics4Me2: I would hope so if he's running a state
ArPharazonV: anyway, I'm going to bed... enough picking on US elections
Musics4Me2: heh, night Phar
GilraenV: although I do believe a tree stump is more intelligent than Bush....
ArPharazonV: lol, that's true
ArPharazonV: anyway, I'm saving transcript
ArPharazonV: Namarie
GwaihirValar: I would've used the expression 'his namesake is far more intelligent than he is'
Elwing V: have one of your pleasant dreams
GilraenV: Namarie
GwaihirValar: farewell Phara
Musics4Me2: have a copy of the transcript as well
GilraenV: hehe. nah, tree stumps are even less intelligent that bushes ;-)
ArPharazonV: thnx, Elwing... but let's not carry that so far it will be misinterpreted :-X
Musics4Me2: I disagree with your assesments of your intelligence, he did make it to office
GwaihirValar: ya, but Bush being less intelligent than bush is just a funny concept :-)
GilraenV: true
Elwing V: only interpretation to blame
GwaihirValar: He made it to office because he rigged the election
GwaihirValar: lol
ArPharazonV: bye
ArPharazonV: Namarie
Musics4Me2: and I do not know him as a person, so all I can talk about is his political idealogy
ArPharazonV: it is saved
GwaihirValar: I can talk about his intellect based on his comments, speeches, and obvious lack of knowledge...
GwaihirValar: "Japan has been one of our greatest allies and trade partners for the past 100 years"... *blinks* what??
GwaihirValar: one of my favorite Bushisms includes that quote
Musics4Me2: heh
Musics4Me2: I keep a bunch of quotes... I'm addicted to the things: P
GwaihirValar: There WAS a small, insignificant period where that wasn't quite so true...
GwaihirValar: I call it: the first half of the 20th century
GilraenV: *laughs*
ArPharazonV: bye
ArPharazonV: Namarie
ArPharazonV: again
GwaihirValar: farewell
GilraenV: bye
ArPharazonV: oh wait
Musics4Me2: namarie
ArPharazonV: almost forgot my own personal stamp
ArPharazonV: Namarei!
GilraenV: lol
Musics4Me2: ok, lol
Elwing V: and back at'ya
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Interesting to see how our messed up media messes up what the rest of the world sees of us
GwaihirValar: yup...
Musics4Me2: yes
Musics4Me2: and how one-sided education is
Elwing V: We supposedly get both sides of the stories, tho one side can be favored
Elwing V: still unnerving how much influence some people/groups have on how much info we get/don't get about things
GwaihirValar: I've talked to a LOT of people in the US who have taken the normal required history as far as the US is concerned who didn't even know the War of 1812 happened...
Elwing V: is that a trick question ? :-)
GwaihirValar: not a trick question... just a comment...
GwaihirValar: from what I've seen, the US system of education is very poorly made...
Elwing V: oh thought you said When it happened :-)
GwaihirValar: who didn't know that it HAD happened
Musics4Me2: 1812-1814 eh?
GwaihirValar: let alone that the White House had been burnt down
Musics4Me2: against the british IIRC....
Elwing V: must need new reading glasses :/
Elwing V: must admit I forgot a lot of history I learned afterwards if particular period wasn't interesting to me; also geography, tho I knew where places were well enough to pass my tests at school.
Elwing V: I'd probably fail those tests now; wouldn't do well in a trivia game either :-)
GwaihirValar: there's a difference between forgetting and not knowing lol
Musics4Me2: aye
Musics4Me2: I dislike most history before the 18th century
GwaihirValar: I'm doing a course on Roman Mythology and one on Greek and Roman Mythology next semester
GwaihirValar: I think they'll both be quite fun....
Musics4Me2: ah, boring stuff to me
GwaihirValar: I love mythology... I hate history lol
GwaihirValar: especially recent history
Musics4Me2: ah, we're quite opposites heh
GwaihirValar: yup
GwaihirValar: recent history is just... I dunno, I have so many objections to the way our society is now that I just can't stand recent history
Musics4Me2: heh, in social studies it seems I'm always commenting on things she's talking about heh
GwaihirValar: and also warfare is just so SO much more intriguing back in the ancient periods
GwaihirValar: than it is now
Musics4Me2: yea, nuke. drop. boom. game over
GwaihirValar: namely before the onset of guns and cannons...
Elwing V: History was ok except you had to go over the same things every year and it got boring.
GwaihirValar: anything before the time of guns I can find some interest in
GwaihirValar: lol
Musics4Me2: yes, and I don't care much about 3rd world countries (learning about them)
Elwing V: getting into cultures and rituals was interesting, but that could be more social studies than history (in some cases)
GwaihirValar: ya...
Musics4Me2: w00t, I got my password to the comp back and fixed my createuser script
GwaihirValar: that's why I'm going into Mythology courses
GwaihirValar: not history :-)
Musics4Me2: Varda -- the guild and your account are created (with correct UIDs and permissions I must add :P)
VardaValar1: I have a Folklore & Mythology page you can add to
VardaValar1: Thanks!!!
VardaValar1: Arathorn is still testing
GwaihirValar: hehe, I'll have to keep note of what I learn that's really intriguing :-)
GwaihirValar: if I have to write any papers, and I end u pbeing proud of the result, submit the papers hehe
Musics4Me2: hm... darnit! shoulda checked the UID on your account first before stating that heh
Musics4Me2: yay, fixed the script right now (stupid return got inserted in an odd place...) and it created your varda account right, so you're set :-) (and I checked this time :P)
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
VardaValar1: We are having a room problem on the valarguild server, so you may be seeing goodies headed your way
Musics4Me2: no prob
Musics4Me2: well, I'm off to cook food, best discussion I've had in a while (heck, this is the best weekend I've had in a long time... went over to a friend's house for two nights, then came home and got into this discussion =D)
GwaihirValar: hehe
Elwing V: glad to be of assistance in making your weekend good :-)
Musics4Me2: :-), I wish I could get here more often.... sigh, camping
Elwing V: camping is fun too (without wargs and orcs that is :-) )
GwaihirValar: they make it fun too... it's always fun to swoop them up into the air to test if they can fly...
GwaihirValar: They usually don't.
Musics4Me2: anyways, saving log to mail to Varda and I'm out
GilraenV: namarie
GwaihirValar: farewell
Elwing V: fare well
Musics4Me2: and the same to you all
VardaValar1: Thanks!
VardaValar1: Namarie until mail check ; )
Musics4Me2: well, log sent
GwaihirValar: farewell :-)
Musics4Me2: or sending, whatever... off for food.
Elwing V: back to flying orcs/wargs...they USUALLY don't ? so some DO ?
GwaihirValar: some of them miss the ground ;-)
Elwing V: ok then...was thinking of first time I found out those hideous humongous tree roaches could fly... :-(
GwaihirValar: ahh... hhgttg... gotta love it...
GwaihirValar: ooh... another reason to love winnipeg... no tree roaches ;-)
Elwing V: (flying orc - a balrog "mini-me" )
GwaihirValar: hehe
MyLifeForAuir72 has entered the room.
MyLifeForAuir72: Aiya
GwaihirValar: g'day
Musics4Me2: back :-)
MyLifeForAuir72: how's everyone doing?
Musics4Me2: good :-)
GilraenV: I'm off now. Namarie all
Elwing V: Namarie
Musics4Me2: namarie!
MyLifeForAuir72: Namarie
GilraenV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Congratulations to Arathorn!
VardaValar1: He has just achieved Maia Honor
GwaihirValar: ah so *that* was the test *grins*
GwaihirValar: congrats to you Arathorn!
VardaValar1: Aye : )
GwaihirValar: what name is he taking? :-)
Elwing V: He has survived the tortures of the inquisition room :-)
VardaValar1: He says he wants to keep the Arathorn name
GwaihirValar: it's not THAT torturous!
Eonwe Valar: afk for sec
MyLifeForAuir72: congrats arathorn :-)
GwaihirValar: I rememberw hen I went through it... or was it just that they were being nice to me becuase it was so close to Christmas *ponders*
Eonwe Valar: Quiet Gwaihir, or everyone's going to want to be a Maia :}
Musics4Me2: w00t Mike!
Elwing V: "you will tell us all you know, or else...!" :-)
GwaihirValar: would that be a bad thing, Eo? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: well, they don't need to know about the special lounge or the parking spot closer to the meeting,.. oops :}
GwaihirValar: parking spot schmarking spot... when you're an eagle, you just land on the roof *grins*
VardaValar1: lol
Elwing V: Parking for Maia only - all others Shall Not Pass!
Musics4Me2: darn :P
Musics4Me2: even though I can't drive hehe
VardaValar1: bike parking spaces too
GwaihirValar: hehe
MyLifeForAuir72: but i have to pass yours to get to my spot on the top floor!
GwaihirValar: stabling spots too
VardaValar1: Good to see you again, Auir
VardaValar1: Please remind me what your guild name is? Failing memory
GwaihirValar: I remembering envying the Maiar when I had to stable Asfaloth back in the NORMAL section back when I was a mere Elf ;-)
MyLifeForAuir72: thanks, i have escaped work, though barely, they where trying to make me stay after!
MyLifeForAuir72: Paladin Took
VardaValar1: Then we are fortunate indeed!
VardaValar1: You are one of the first to hear the news about our new Maia by coming in : )
MyLifeForAuir72: :D
MyLifeForAuir72: Do any of you know how orodreth is doing?
Musics4Me2: I haven't seen him in quite a while unfort
MyLifeForAuir72: well I know he had a bunch of personal stuff going on, hopefully everything is working out
Musics4Me2: as do I
VardaValar1: Orodreth pops in here and is managing
Musics4Me2: ah, good :-)
VardaValar1: If we knew every personal problem of everyone here, it would be a great weight
VardaValar1: It is good to know how resilient people are
Musics4Me2: survival of the fittest :P
VardaValar1: aye : )
MyLifeForAuir72: good to here he is doing okay
MyLifeForAuir72: musics what is your guild name?
Musics4Me2: Farmer Maggot
MyLifeForAuir72: ah, okay
VardaValar1: Everyone feel free to make a guild screen name to go along with your regular ; )
MyLifeForAuir72: please don't chase my son out of your field then, he gets hungry sometimes :-)
Musics4Me2: ah, I did... just forgot to use it :P
Musics4Me2: heh
MyLifeForAuir72: hmmm, I should probably do that
VardaValar1: It's good exercise
GwaihirValar: what, making screen names? ;-)
VardaValar1: That too. Being chased out of Farmer Maggot's fields
MyLifeForAuir72: heh
VardaValar1: Was reading the poem about Tom Bombadil
VardaValar1: Good friend with Farmer Maggot that he calls Muddy Feet
VardaValar1: Spent time at his house and with his family
MyLifeForAuir72: brb
MyLifeForAuir72 has left the room.
ThainPaladinTook has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: wb
ThainPaladinTook: ha, found a name that wasnt taken!
ThainPaladinTook: ty
VardaValar1: Woot!
VardaValar1: Usually adding the V at the end makes our guild names more available
VardaValar1: Welcome back : )
GwaihirValar: wow... it's amazing the progress people are making in the runeword tests on
GwaihirValar: progress with no success yet
GwaihirValar: but progress nonetheless
ArathornValar: Is that you Paladin.. old ID MyLifeforAiur72?
ThainPaladinTook: I have such problems trying to play d2 without another person, I get bored to fast when I am alone I guess :/
GwaihirValar: hehe
ThainPaladinTook: yes, congrats arathorn :-)
ArathornValar: Thx! Er.. do you want both IDs on the Aim page or only this new one?
ThainPaladinTook: this one works, just have to add people to this one now
ArathornValar: Grimbold and I were playing together for a number of weeks, but haven't geard from him this week
ArathornValar: *heard
ThainPaladinTook: you normally play ladder right?
ArathornValar: Ok, well, I'm off to have a bite to eat.
ArathornValar: Yeah.
GwaihirValar: you prolly need it heh
GwaihirValar: ;-)
GwaihirValar: enjoy
ArathornValar: Said I wouldn't this time but go figure :P
ThainPaladinTook: Namarie
VardaValar1: Namarie !
GwaihirValar: farewell
VardaValar1: It's a challenge
GwaihirValar: what is? :-)
VardaValar1: and Arathorn is at the top of the ladder with an 88 assassin
VardaValar1: guild ladder
GwaihirValar: ah
Musics4Me2: hm...... Adium .7b is being really sluggy with this 186k chat :P
ThainPaladinTook: all my characters are non ladder also :/
GwaihirValar: my chars are 81 pal/79 asn/ mid-low 60s sorc... and the rest are tremendously lower... but I don't do much leveling... I get the char high enough to do the runs I like to do and then stop leveling lol
VardaValar1: Woot! Farmer's being a huge help with the art site!
VardaValar1: I have ladder and non-ladder
GwaihirValar: I have only ladder
VardaValar1: When you are in the 80's you can play with other 80's guys like Arathorn
ThainPaladinTook: ladder reset messed me up, I want to keep playing my old characters but now they arent ladder
VardaValar1: You can still play them though
ThainPaladinTook: oh I do :-)
GwaihirValar: I just wiped clean and started over
GwaihirValar: hehe
GwaihirValar: I don't like non-ladder... you can't find the new runewords ;-)
GwaihirValar: my goal this ladder is to have at least one of those really nice runewords that're so impossible to get without trading lol
VardaValar1: We can make them, yesss
GwaihirValar: to prove ot myself it's not impossible :-)
GwaihirValar: some are ladder only
VardaValar1: I mostly play ladder or hardcore, a little regular
ThainPaladinTook: i can't do hardcore, lag would have me dead in an instant
GwaihirValar: ya... 23 new ladder only runewords
VardaValar1: Be sure to email your ladder character results to me for updating the ladder page
GwaihirValar: I'm too daring to do hardcore
GwaihirValar: I'd never even get past normal lol
Musics4Me2: I don't game much, too much other stuff to do :P
ThainPaladinTook: I sent you an email yesterday varda, didnt give you any stuff for d2x cause it's all non ladder
VardaValar1: I don't game much either. High char at 28 ;-)
ThainPaladinTook: that's always a problem to, no time
VardaValar1: We have time, just not as much as we want
ThainPaladinTook: true
VardaValar1: We have to decide what to do with the time we have. : )
ThainPaladinTook: :-)
ThainPaladinTook: i have that poster on my wall
VardaValar1: One of my favorite quotes
ThainPaladinTook: should this quick aim page have aim names on it? I can't seem to remember orodreth's
VardaValar1: It should show names
VardaValar1: I had trouble seeing them on my P166
VardaValar1: Shows good on my bigger comps though
ThainPaladinTook: well i do get an error when the page come up
ThainPaladinTook: maybe I need to look at it on my other comp
VardaValar1: I'll check it
VardaValar1: OrodrethV is his AIM name
ThainPaladinTook: k, thanks
ThainPaladinTook: must just be my os, i am using my mac os right now, have windows on my other computer
VardaValar1: might be
VardaValar1: The P166 uses Win95, the comps that read QuickAIM that I use are XP
Musics4Me2: ah, which Mac OS Vers?
Musics4Me2: I would hope OS X as it's the only good one heh
ThainPaladinTook: i have osX and os9, right now i have 9 running
Musics4Me2: ah, I can't stand OS 9...
ThainPaladinTook: yeah but most of my games run under 9 cause alot of them are old :-)
VardaValar1: That's why we keep our old comp too : )
Musics4Me2: ah, that would do it
Musics4Me2: I assume classic won't handle it?
ThainPaladinTook: well I have my old comp to but I am running out of desk space :-)
ThainPaladinTook: won't handle what?
Musics4Me2: the games nicel
Musics4Me2: y
ThainPaladinTook: well games like marathon, that I like to play wont go on osX, so i mostly just use 9, since most new games play just fine on it also
ThainPaladinTook: hmm my comma's all seem to be off in that last message
HearNoEvil80 has left the room.
VardaValar1: Namarie!
Elwing V: Been looking at comics page listed earlier in chat...very interesting :-)
VardaValar1: Hobbits Live
Elwing V: Think my eyes have about been filled to capacity, so going to sign off now...
VardaValar1: Has tons of good stuff
VardaValar1: Same : )
ThainPaladinTook: ah, yeah i looked at that alos, was some good ones
ThainPaladinTook: Namarie
VardaValar1: Check out the fan art
Elwing V: Been a very enjoyable afternoon/evening, thanks all
Eonwe Valar: sleep well :}
GwaihirValar: farewell
VardaValar1: Beautiful and has a great how-to
Elwing V: Ever onward! Namarie
VardaValar1: Sleep, hah : )
VardaValar1: Namarie
Transcript portion from Arathorn: 
(9:44:59 PM) Elwing V has left the room.
Musics4Me2 (9:45:49 PM): well, I need to close this window, the program is getting extremely sluggy (perhaps this 5:15 hour chat log that's 187kb is why... :P)
Eonwe Valar (9:46:15 PM): perhaps :}
ThainPaladinTook (9:46:18 PM): heh
ThainPaladinTook (9:46:21 PM): Namarie
Musics4Me2 (9:46:53 PM): ouch, it grew to 196kb :P
Musics4Me2 (9:46:58 PM): well, Namarie
Eonwe Valar (9:47:18 PM): namarie
(9:47:33 PM) Musics4Me2 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar (9:58:11 PM): Well, I shall head out as well.
Eonwe Valar (9:58:17 PM): Take care all and good night :}
ThainPaladinTook (9:58:24 PM): you to, Namarie
(9:58:29 PM) Eonwe Valar has left the room.
ThainPaladinTook (10:02:33 PM): guess I will get off also and do some gaming, Namarie
(10:02:41 PM) ThainPaladinTook has left the room.
(10:02:57 PM) GwaihirValar has left the room.