Valar Guild

October 10, 2004 Meeting

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
5pm ESDT, 22:00 GMT
Back to News

Before-meeting
Meeting Begins
Membership
Web
Gaming
Tolkien
After-meeting
    Diplomacy MUD
    Maiar in Middle-earth 

Before-meeting:
You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."
VardaValar1: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Manenna?
VardaValar1: Nan mara, hantal
VardaValar1: Working on Encyc on the side
ArPharazonV: ic
VardaValar1: You gaming?
ArPharazonV: no, browsing the war3 forums... still deeply immersed in the elimination game :-)
VardaValar1: Nifty - have fun!
ArPharazonV: we've been going at it for months, so the fun is largely over, although nobody wants to quit first :-D
VardaValar1: hehe
Aerandir V has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Aerandir
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Nice coincidence. Just setting up the article for Aerandir on its own separate page and there you are! : )
VardaValar1: Would be interesting to imagine his thoughts in a poem
ArPharazonV: “Sea-wanderer”, one of the three mariners who accompanied Ëarendil on his voyage to Aman.
Aerandir V: aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya
Aerandir V: earendels ship was smaller than I originally imagined it
Aerandir V: very small crew
VardaValar1: If he has to sail it alone in the sky, might not want it too large
ArPharazonV: wasn't his wife with him?
Aerandir V: I dont think that was ever really cleared up
Aerandir V: the earendel story was one of the most incoherent
VardaValar1: No, she was not on the ship
Aerandir V: the silm version cut out about 95% of the story ideas
VardaValar1: Tough having to pare all those notes down to the tiny space in the Sil
ArPharazonV: while still completely cutting out the last stages of change...
Aerandir V: earendel fighting ungoliant, traveling to the south and east, looking for elwing, this story could have been an epic itself
Aerandir V: thats why I chose aerandir
VardaValar1: Last stages of change are sometimes what-ifs, not serious. Makes it tough to know when to include
ArPharazonV: yeah, earendel fighting ungoliant in the south was a lot better than ungoliant 'consuming herself'....
TurgonjustTurgon has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
ArPharazonV: but the last stages of change, what the ones I'm talking about
TurgonjustTurgon: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: were very radical
ArPharazonV: Tolkien wanted to adapt the history to modern astronomy
VardaValar1: Consuming herself is intriguing, not the usual sword slashing story
TurgonjustTurgon: what's the topic?
VardaValar1: Just chatting, not meeting yet
Aerandir V: some of the story has earendel getting to valinor after the marching of the elves, which seemed kinda anti climatic
VardaValar1: Aerandir and Earendil and how the Silmarillion was written
ArPharazonV: he made the moon a part of Arda, which Melkor broke from the world, as a temporal stronghold for his own....
Aerandir V: which history is that in?
ArPharazonV: part 10 and 11
Aerandir V: ok
ArPharazonV: and other things
ArPharazonV: as making the sun before Arda
ArPharazonV: lemme find the details...
VardaValar1: We had to set something as canon, so we had to go with LotR, then Sil
TurgonjustTurgon: hmmmz... seems like this is about something I have no knowledge about
Aerandir V: what england was changed a lot too, with aelfwine and tol eressea and and how the elves left middle-earth
Aerandir V: when I get to those stories I really feel how uncompleted they are. you can imagine how good they could have become
ArPharazonV: I did find the section in part 10...
ArPharazonV: 'Myths transformed'
VardaValar1: There is always more, Turgon. That's one reason Tolkien stays interesting : )
ArPharazonV: the whole cosmology underwent a huge change
ArPharazonV: which was, for continuity, completely left out of the published silm
ArPharazonV: if Tolkien has set through the changes (meaning: had not died at the time), who knows what had become different...
VardaValar1: Phar, what I was talking about earlier on the Elves page in the Encyc, is now uploaded for the first two elf entries and all the articles
VardaValar1: Reload and try clicking Aerandir now
Aerandir V: england was at one time tol eressea but later an island settled in a pattern clost to tol eressea by the elves
VardaValar1: Having the Isle of Balar break off from it gave more plot possibilities
ArPharazonV: uhm.... I don't see a difference. Do I have the right encyc?
VardaValar1: reload the page, or you will get your cached version
Orodreth V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: I did, I even went back to the site menu
VardaValar1: Aiya Orodreth
Orodreth V: Aiya all.
Orodreth V: I got the e-mail about WC3..I'd help if I could.
ArPharazonV: I've been at bnet daily for the last week or so, can't do anything more...
VardaValar1: Be sure to reload the right frame
VardaValar1: 'Thanks, both of you
VardaValar1: Sauron had to make a new WC3 account and it disappeared the next day
VardaValar1: Do you have to stay on a particular length of time for it to remain?
ArPharazonV: what change am I supposed to see, actually?
VardaValar1: Click Aerandir
ArPharazonV: yes, done that
VardaValar1: Does it just run down the page as before or give you a separate entry?
ArPharazonV: run down the page
VardaValar1: I'm trying it and its giving a separate entry
ArPharazonV: hey, this is odd
ArPharazonV: now I'm getting a seperate entry
VardaValar1: Maybe it's the time lag between US and Europe?
Aerandir V: its doing it for me
VardaValar1: Glad it worked : )
VardaValar1: Thanks for the check!
ArPharazonV: I went back to the first page of valarguild.org, and back to the encyc, and nothing
VardaValar1: About a zillion more elves to go
ArPharazonV: I went to my own personal homepage
ArPharazonV: and again travelled to the encyc
ArPharazonV: again nothing
VardaValar1: May have been looking at your cached version from the first look?
VardaValar1: Easy to reload the wrong frame
GilraenV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: this time I manually refreshed both frames, using 'reload' from the right-click menu, and then it finally worked
VardaValar1: Yay
ArPharazonV: perhaps it's firefox....
ArPharazonV: oh well
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Gilraen
GilraenV: Aiya all
Orodreth V: You have to stay on for..4 hours in a 48 hour period, I think.
VardaValar1: ahh, that's the problem then
VardaValar1: We had several report the same problem
Orodreth V: something around that time.
Orodreth V: I always just left my comp on while I went to sleep when I made a new account.
Orodreth V: ..or played for 12 hours. :-P
ArPharazonV: heh
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Orodreth V: Aiya
GilraenV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
GwaihirValar: hullo
ArPharazonV: argh! the yellow name... blinding me...
Eonwe Valar: Happy 7th Anniversary! :}
Orodreth V: Oh, Varda..I finally started working on Chapter 2 last weekend.
Orodreth V: It took me an hour to get two paragraphs, so I'm gonn ahve to wait until I've got more breating room at school.
Orodreth V: ...that has more typos them most editions of the New York Times.
VardaValar1: An hour for two paragraphs? : )
VardaValar1: Might run through a spell checker after typing a while. Don't let typos put on the brakes
Orodreth V: Yea.
Orodreth V: not going fast.
Orodreth V: did it last weekend.
Orodreth V: I think my first break is Thanksgiving.
VardaValar1: No deadline here
VardaValar1: No paycheck, more's the pity ;-)
Orodreth V: I'll try and have everything done before I start the weekend so I can work on that and waste the rest of my time.
VardaValar1: hehe - good luck
VardaValar1: afk
Orodreth V: I also made some changes to chapter one, but without a net connection my only option is to burn it to a CD, and I'm gona wait awhile more before I do that.
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
VardaValar1: back
VardaValar1: Aiya Gil-galad
Xseanzee disco: Heyyy!
VardaValar1: How about a floppy disk? They can hold a book of text
Orodreth V: No floppy drive on ym laptop, and I'm not thrilled about retyping that thing up on here.
ArPharazonV: well, actually...
ArPharazonV: I had a file, of purely text
ArPharazonV: 743 pages
ArPharazonV: which took up about 6 mb
MJKeenan123 has entered the room.
Orodreth V: Good greif.
Gamatzgamatz has entered the room.
GwaihirValar: unless yuo have masses of coloured text and such
ArPharazonV: so... a book of text on one floppy? I doubt it
VardaValar1: Aiya
Orodreth V: What was that?
Gamatzgamatz: aiya
VardaValar1: I've done it, Phar
GwaihirValar: basically one page takes about a kb
GwaihirValar: it's one byte per letter
GwaihirValar: at most
VardaValar1: It did not take that much space
GwaihirValar: depending on how it's stored
ArPharazonV: well, perhaps it's the program...
ArPharazonV: Microsoft word
GwaihirValar: you must've saved it as rich text
GwaihirValar: with a LOT of added stuff
VardaValar1: I used Word
ArPharazonV: well, actually, do (not-working) hyperlinks take up extra space?
Orodreth V: With notepad, you can fit much info in.
Orodreth V: Yes.
ArPharazonV: heh, that could explain it...
Orodreth V: If the code is in there..that'd take up plenty of space depending on how Word does it.
ArPharazonV: I took up the task of putting the entire interactive story from warcraft.org into a word-file
VardaValar1: I used no links, just text
VardaValar1: Each chapter had a separate file
VardaValar1: Worked fine
ArPharazonV: for each 'chapter' there were like 3 links... and it must have gotten over a 1000 'chapters'
Orodreth V: There's probally some sort of formatting in there as well.
VardaValar1: Anyone seen Arathorn lately?
Orodreth V: Bold, size, ect.
Orodreth V: Never get a chance to. :-\
Gamatzgamatz: lol same here
ArPharazonV: yes, quite... the titles are all in large bold
VardaValar1: Might break it into twenty chapters a floppy, about 5 pages a chapter
Orodreth V: Formatting take up extra space..the more of it there is, the more space it takes up.
ArPharazonV: no matter, I don't need to put it on floppy... and the story has been removed from the website, for over a year now... should be coming back, but I don'T have much faith in it
Orodreth V: But a pure text document..
ThorondorV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
ThorondorV: Good evening...
VardaValar1: It's on ours though
VardaValar1: Nice group here : )
top

Meeting:
VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
VardaValar1: Member News:
VardaValar1: Oct 4 was the Valar Guild's Seventh Anniversary
VardaValar1: Congratulations to all of you for keeping an online group going so long.
VardaValar1: A guild is only as good as its members, and this is a very good guild thanks to you all.
TurgonjustTurgon: 3 Hurrays for the Valar Guild!
VardaValar1: Does anyone wish to comment?
VardaValar1: : )
TurgonjustTurgon: well, depends on whether or not everyone here has read the letters posted in the MB
VardaValar1: or the News page
VardaValar1: or came to the last meeting : )
ArPharazonV: well, unless new ones were posted today, I think I read them all
VardaValar1: Feel free to post, anyone who has not
VardaValar1: Of course you've all signed up for the forum with your guild name : )
top

VardaValar1: Web News:
VardaValar1: The Encyclopedia is currently being re-worked
VardaValar1: If you hit strangeness such as one entry being down the page and another with a page of its own, it is temporary
VardaValar1: All entries will eventually have their own separate pages to aid navigation
VardaValar1: Any other web news?
ArPharazonV: *thinking hard....*
ArPharazonV: nope, can't think of any... perhaps I should prepare a bit for the meetings next time :-)
VardaValar1: Eonwe's Games page?
VardaValar1: The guys here before the meeting kindly helped check out Encyc links. My thanks!
Eonwe Valar: Still working on getting it together
VardaValar1: That's a lot of data
VardaValar1: Thanks for your hard work
Eonwe Valar: I had a very tight schedule with homework this week
VardaValar1: Guys, feel free to send him more : )
VardaValar1: Understood. We all work between everything else
ArPharazonV: I think I've sent him enough :-D
VardaValar1: The fun of being volunteer workers
VardaValar1: : )
top

VardaValar1: Gaming News:
VardaValar1: WarCraft3/The Frozen Throne:
VardaValar1: We all need to try to pop into channel Clan Vala every two weeks or before 28 days
GwaihirValar: aye, our clan no longer has the 'danger' flag...
GwaihirValar: but I wouldn't call it safe yet.
Gamatzgamatz: hey guys is our clan on tft?
VardaValar1: Eonwe? Sauron said he had to make a new account but it disappeared by the next day
VardaValar1: Yes, Gamatz
Gamatzgamatz: cuz then i should add it to my account
GwaihirValar: wc3/tft
Gamatzgamatz: lol im thanduil by the way
Eonwe Valar: hmm, that's strange
GwaihirValar: Azeroth gateway
Gamatzgamatz: k
VardaValar1: It probably did not log in enough time
Eonwe Valar: Sauron may have been over the 90 limit for bnet accounts?
ArPharazonV: 90??
VardaValar1: No
VardaValar1: He is well under
Eonwe Valar: 90-day
VardaValar1: All games in Valar default to USA East to help us get together, no matter which country or time zone we are in
Eonwe Valar: hmm that is strange then
VardaValar1: 90-day?
ThorondorV: Varda, what's the ladder-mule situation in LoD now..?
VardaValar1: Not good
ThorondorV: I'll try to give them some time then
VardaValar1: Since we had little interest, and difficulty transferring ladder 1 items to regular mules, we had trouble unloading
Eonwe Valar: 90= 3 months,.. last I heard that was the longest an account could remain on bnet without being logged into
VardaValar1: We could try again and see if we want to re-make ladder 2 mules
VardaValar1: Aye, pretty sure Sauron's and Fangorn's died in that time
Celebrimbor V has entered the room.
ThorondorV: Hmm.. perhaps it would be better to overwrite
ArPharazonV: lol, that happened to me too
Celebrimbor V: aita
ArPharazonV: on starcraft
VardaValar1: We had not realized it was three months already
Celebrimbor V: *aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya
ArPharazonV: my account was gone, because I hadn't logged in for 3 months...
Celebrimbor V: can't stay long....but wanted to drop in
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ThorondorV: Heya
Celebrimbor V: hey hey
VardaValar1: Thanks, Cel!
Celebrimbor V: no prob
VardaValar1: In a little bit, I would like to go to Clan Vala and set up some WC3 accounts and flag them. Need to remake
VardaValar1: Any other Gaming News or questions?
Gamatzgamatz: how is WoW goin?
Gamatzgamatz: World of Warcraft*
ArPharazonV: open US beta signups are coming soon
Gamatzgamatz: finally!!
VardaValar1: Eonwe, that's your baby, WoW
ArPharazonV: and I still haven't gotten my Europe mail... sigh...
Eonwe Valar: Yep, Open Beta signups for WoW coming soon, as Phar said :}
Eonwe Valar: for North America, anyway :}
Gamatzgamatz: cool sounds good
VardaValar1: Pardon, trying to answer a host of windows here : )
TurgonjustTurgon: I have some late webnews
VardaValar1: Gamatz, you are Thranduil?
VardaValar1: Turgon, go ahead
TurgonjustTurgon: it came to me while mulling over the anniversary, and then I thought about the MB
TurgonjustTurgon: and although I can't pinpoint the exact date of creation, it seems it was started in late august 2003
TurgonjustTurgon: which means that too has had it's 1st anniversary :-)
Gamatzgamatz: yea i am
VardaValar1: Congratulations, founder of the Forum aka MB aka Message Board :-)
Gamatzgamatz: sorry was away
VardaValar1: It has been very helpful
TurgonjustTurgon: thankee :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: is why I created it :-)
VardaValar1: np, Thranduil. Most of this group is away and scrolls
ArPharazonV: congrats
Gamatzgamatz: :-)
VardaValar1: We've had other message boards created, but the originators drifted away very shortly after
VardaValar1: Turgon has stuck with it and found helpers for the rough times
TurgonjustTurgon: I intend to linger for a very long time :-)
VardaValar1: So it has flourished
ArPharazonV: sorry, kinda busy... was trying to find the ancient name I had thought of for the orc 'paradise', which would be looked for in my story....
VardaValar1: We hope you do, Turgon
VardaValar1: Don't have to tell us, Phar : )
ArPharazonV: I don't suppose I once told you that name, Turg?
VardaValar1: Any further Gaming news?
TurgonjustTurgon: indeed, membership count at the moment is 112 and with over 2100 posts :-)
ArPharazonV: sorry, shifting to IM
TurgonjustTurgon: you may or may not Phar, don't recall
VardaValar1: Turgon, that's even after Eonwe's housecleaning : )
Orodreth V: I can't remember if I mentioned it last week, but if anyone was hopinh (read: I was) to play with me on woS, forget it. This comp can't connect to any servers.
TurgonjustTurgon: indeed Varda :-)
VardaValar1: Sorry to hear that, Orodreth
ArPharazonV: that's too bad... I could have used your support in Aerianell ;-)
VardaValar1: Any other Gaming news?
Celebrimbor V has left the room.
TurgonjustTurgon: made my first plat on Gaheris, DaoC 8-)
VardaValar1: Fladrif had news:
VardaValar1: DOSBox Emulator
VardaValar1: This program works to let DOS games be played even on operating systems such as Windows XP
VardaValar1: He tested it on Lemmings for the PC and it worked well for him
VardaValar1: The link is on our News, but is intuitive
VardaValar1: Any other Game news?
VardaValar1: Orodreth may be able to play Browser games with you folks : )
TurgonjustTurgon: I've tried it for some dos-based games released somewhere in win 95, and it doesn't seem to work there, but could be my machine, or the game
ThorondorV: I'm off for a while, shower and supper. might be back
GilraenV: I have to go. Namarie all.
GilraenV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Namarie
ThorondorV: cya
ThorondorV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Business meeting over, as they knew : )
top

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
Gamatzgamatz: ok then namarie, peace
TurgonjustTurgon: if possible, I'd like to quote a couple lines from the anniversary letters :-)
VardaValar1: Namarie, Thranduil
Gamatzgamatz has left the room.
VardaValar1: Turgon, just a few please. We can read them
VardaValar1: Go ahead
TurgonjustTurgon: first one is from Elatan
TurgonjustTurgon: We are carried by a belief and trust in companienship and friendship founded upon and described in JRR Tolkiens book The Lord of the Rings.
TurgonjustTurgon: Pharazon:
TurgonjustTurgon: This is the most honorable Guild I have ever seen, and it deserves to live forever.
TurgonjustTurgon: Varda:
TurgonjustTurgon: May we continue another seven and another, no matter who we see as "running" this place. That has shifted about, but the original vision of Eru and Manwe has stayed alive and become ever stronger.
TurgonjustTurgon: myself:
TurgonjustTurgon: I am proud to be a member of the Valar Guild, where we are appreciated for who we are, black or white, great or small, where loyalty prevails over discordance,
TurgonjustTurgon: where friendship stands victorious over petty squables, where honor finds its champion. That the Valar Guild may forever remain a solid fortress in a raging and swallowing sea!
TurgonjustTurgon: those are the things that to me, stood out most in the letters
VardaValar1: Well said
VardaValar1: We owe a great deal to the original ideas from JRRT
VardaValar1: All of us read them
VardaValar1: and valued them
VardaValar1: Fellowship, with its loyalty and honor
VardaValar1: We brought that which we loved here.
VardaValar1: Can you folks think of other ideas from Tolkien that we tried to carry over, or elaborate on those?
TurgonjustTurgon: May those ideas forever live on in the hearts of the righteous people of the Guild, honoring Tolkien's memory!
TurgonjustTurgon: well, Varda, I must quite honestly say that Tolkien took the ideals that at his time were vastly diminishing from the world
TurgonjustTurgon: and as of today are nearly made an obscenity by those who crave power over others
VardaValar1: Lets try not to divert into politics : )
TurgonjustTurgon: not trying to :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: just saying that the ideals we are trying to hold to should be common and upheld by everyone
TurgonjustTurgon: but as Tolkien saw truly, that wasn't going to happen any time soon, and thus are we bolstered by Tolkien's ideals embodied in the LotR and his other works
VardaValar1: Since they are not, it is good to have a haven for the ideas and nurture them to grow and reach other parts of our lives.
TurgonjustTurgon: indeed
Eonwe Valar: If more were willing to uphold those ideals, it would strengthen others in upholding them.
TurgonjustTurgon: but there is also something else to it
TurgonjustTurgon: those ideals are which tied us together, not just from reading Tolkien's works, but from within ourselves
TurgonjustTurgon: if we ourselves would not have believed in such ideals, we would not have started on Tolkien's works
TurgonjustTurgon: thus I think we can rightly say that it is our own ideals that foremost keeps us together, along with a shared interest in the world created by Tolkien
TurgonjustTurgon: oh well, starting to get sentimental again lol
VardaValar1: Right, it is the fact that the ideals in JRRT's works spoke to us that brought us together
Eonwe Valar: I assume you include friendship in those ideals
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Aye : )
TurgonjustTurgon: friendship, honor, loyalty, courtisanship
TurgonjustTurgon: or whatever that is spelled
TurgonjustTurgon: although the last one comes in different settings *cough*
VardaValar1: courtesy?
TurgonjustTurgon: yep :-)
VardaValar1: If anyone is still here, please say aye :-)
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: Aye
TurgonjustTurgon: Aye
VardaValar1: heh
ArPharazonV: still here, but browsing, and making a forum post (no, not in the game... not due yet for 15 minutes)
top

VardaValar1: I declare After-meeting
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
TurgonjustTurgon: three little kittens sitting in a house
TurgonjustTurgon: 1 came back home and then there were 4 :-)
VardaValar1: Trying to get our family WC3 accounts to show up and most are misbehaving
ArPharazonV: we couldn't find our cat yesterday... he hadn't come home for supper either
ArPharazonV: late in the evening, he came in, raced to his food, and started munching like crazy
VardaValar1: Tomcats tend to take their leave a few days and return
VardaValar1: The females stay home better
VardaValar1: We had a pretty nice Tolkien chat in the Before-meeting
VardaValar1: Guess it wore us out for the main chat :-)
ArPharazonV: also, I'm trying to find a nice title for act 5 of my tale... so my mind is half elsewhere :-)
VardaValar1: Thanks for coming, guys : )
ArPharazonV: so, continue on the pre-meeting-chat?
ArPharazonV: about the changes Tolkien made, which were or were not incorporated in the published version?
VardaValar1: Wrestling other programs now, chat as you like. I'll look back for a scroll now and then
VardaValar1: That was not the orignal topic : )
ArPharazonV: well, it was the earliest...
VardaValar1: Nice coincidence. Just setting up the article for Aerandir on its own separate page and there you are! : )
VardaValar1: Would be interesting to imagine his thoughts in a poem
VardaValar1: That was the earliest in a copy/paste, a bit messy : )
ArPharazonV: ah, yes, ok...
VardaValar1: Not that it matters
VardaValar1: Going back to program wrestling, like alligators
ArPharazonV: alligator-wrestling?
MoriFinwe has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
MoriFinwe: Aiya
ArPharazonV: ooh! ooh! I completely forgot to mention this!
Orodreth V: You all talk about the Hobbit walking songs?
ArPharazonV: I met somebody in War3 the other day
Orodreth V: I've missed the last two meetings..
ArPharazonV: called 'lordofkhazaddum
ArPharazonV: '
ArPharazonV: he asked me how the guild was, and said he used to be a member... Elladan, I think he said
MoriFinwe: ya i know him
MoriFinwe: thats my friend eric
VardaValar1: Aiya
VardaValar1: He can rejoin
MoriFinwe: He is too busy with al;l the rest of his clans
ArPharazonV: yes, indeed...
ArPharazonV: he said he had been the leader of 3 clans, ringwars-clans I think
VardaValar1: Checking
VardaValar1: Elladan is not dropped
MoriFinwe: I cant use war 3 becasue my cd drive wont work
VardaValar1: He is still a member
ArPharazonV: well, perhaps I should let him know that :-)
MoriFinwe: It might be best to take him off I think
VardaValar1: Last contact was June
VardaValar1: If he tells me to take him off, I will
MoriFinwe: He has no intrest of being a part of the Guild any more
VardaValar1: We have a yearly sweep
VardaValar1: He was never in it much
VardaValar1: Showed up a few times in WC3, a few meetings, nothing else
MoriFinwe: No and my other friend Feanor has lost intrst as well
VardaValar1: Ask them to email me to take them off the list, if they want to be removed
MoriFinwe: I will
VardaValar1: I can't do it on the suggestion of another
ArPharazonV: we put each other in the friends-list, chances are pretty large I'll speak to him again... he's pretty much into Ringwars now :-)
VardaValar1: No Encyc interest?
MoriFinwe: That he is and i got him into dota b4 i my cd drive broke
VardaValar1: We do have a Tolkien-only membership available
ArPharazonV: he once offered to guide me through a game of Ringwars, me mordor, he as Harad, he would try to save my reputation as a player...
ArPharazonV: anyway, the game got cancelled because half the players left, and I said it would be best if I didn't join the remake, was running out of time to play
MoriFinwe: ya he has become awfully good at rw
MoriFinwe: he has surpassed me
ArPharazonV: so I'll have to shake off my newbie-status at rw-maps some other time... I still need a lot of practice
MoriFinwe: they have come out with 4 new versions of rw since my cd drive broke
MoriFinwe: each time they get more from the book
Orodreth V: RWs on SC is pure hero micro.
Orodreth V: It's annoying.
MoriFinwe: Grey Mountains, Fornost, Cair Andros, and Lake Town
ArPharazonV: I've got version 20 now, I think that is the most recent one...
MoriFinwe: They had 50 versions of LotR when i was playing starcraft
MoriFinwe: I still have most of them
Orodreth V: 50? Try 150.
VardaValar1: Hey!
Aerandir V: gotta go . namarie!
Aerandir V has left the room.
VardaValar1: If you have the LotR versions, maybe they could be downloaded
VardaValar1: on a page
Orodreth V: Oh, no.
VardaValar1: We had one before but it died a sad death
Orodreth V: Most of them are worthless.
Orodreth V: And they're all PvP.
VardaValar1: Put the good ones on then : )
MoriFinwe: Ya most are rather bad
ArPharazonV: I hosted a summoner yesterday, for a 1v1 with Turgon... and was astonished at the amount of maps I had in the folder
VardaValar1: Since you know which are good, you can pick them out
VardaValar1: Less to put on a page : )
MoriFinwe: They keep updating the good ones so its hard keeping track of them
Orodreth V: There's a few old good ones.
VardaValar1: k
ArPharazonV: several ringwars, 30 or 40 mauls, at least 2 dozen kodo tags....
Orodreth V: FAoME before GotR messed it up.
MoriFinwe: On War 3 the only good ones are Ring Wars and War of the Jewels
Orodreth V: A few others.
Orodreth V: I don't have any of my maps any more..need to salvage them off my old HD.
MoriFinwe: Well i gtg get rdy for work at 5:30
MoriFinwe: Namarie
MoriFinwe has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: hf :}
VardaValar1: Belated namarie
Xseanzee disco has left the room.
VardaValar1: Eowyn is now flagged on WC3
ArPharazonV: so...
ArPharazonV: meeting's kinda empty
VardaValar1: It's over, Phar : )
ArPharazonV: yeah, allrighty then.... and I'll be leaving shortly myself
Orodreth V: No one here plays Diplo, right?
ArPharazonV: Diplo?
VardaValar1: Someone plays everything
Orodreth V: Just making sure.
ArPharazonV: I used to play with Duplo... when I was very young
VardaValar1: You play Diplo, Orodreth?
Orodreth V: Yes'm. Not exactly a game like SC though.
Orodreth V: More like D&D.
Orodreth V: That is, it takes months to play it.
VardaValar1: Might want to send that info to Eonwe by email for update
VardaValar1: if you haven't already
Orodreth V: At least through e-mail or forums.
Orodreth V: Neh.
ArPharazonV: sounds cool already... what is it about?
Orodreth V: I'm too lazy to write up my own thing, so I'll copy the relevant portions from a good site bout it..
Orodreth V: The standard game of Diplomacy is set in the Europe of the early 20th century, and is played by seven players, each taking the part of one of the Great European Powers of that age.
VardaValar1: Could just copy/paste URL
ArPharazonV: Viva la France!
ArPharazonV: don't think Netherlands are included? ;-)
Orodreth V: Whose moves succeed and whose fail are easily determined by the simple rules of the game which permit and govern the combination of multiple units to strengthen (or weaken) any single move or other action.
ArPharazonV: btw, writing another rp-post now
Orodreth V: Indeed, the most important part of the game is the wide-open, free-for-all, promise-the-moon negotiations which occur before each move; negotiations which establish alliances, elaborate war plans, and backstabs.
Orodreth V: That's the condenced version.
Orodreth V: http://diplom.org/Welcome.html
VardaValar1: Thanks
ArPharazonV: hmm... the characters in the rp are supposed to be pretty young, right?
VardaValar1: That will be included in the transcript, helpful info
Eonwe Valar: the Elves need to be, aye
ArPharazonV: as in 'not be married with children'?
Eonwe Valar: since Elves are immortal
Eonwe Valar: well, that depends on how young your elf is
Eonwe Valar: for example, 100 I think is about when ELves come to full maturity
ArPharazonV: meh... I'll say he goes to see his parents and siblings, and not his own wife and children...
ArPharazonV: I'm about to reveal a few lots of background.... his family, his home, etc
ArPharazonV: Hmm... how would an Elven community look, outside the trees and halls?
ArPharazonV: any idea?
VardaValar1: Yes, but that's your job as a writer : )
ArPharazonV: well, I want to be quite accurate with Tolkien, and your own perceptions of it.
ArPharazonV: what did Lorien look like on the ground?
ArPharazonV: where there marketplaces and things like that?
ArPharazonV: *were
Eonwe Valar: marketplaces? I wouldsay no
Eonwe Valar: not in the sense as that we know of, at least
ArPharazonV: did all those activities take place higher up in the trees?
Eonwe Valar: there were no doubt artisans, and they probably traded in some fashion, but I don't think they had spans of little huts where they screamed about their wares
Eonwe Valar: might want to refer to passages on Mirkwood rather than Lorien though
ArPharazonV: and where would I find such passages on Mirkwood? Thanks to Lotr, Lorien is a lot more documented
Eonwe Valar: The Hobbit for one
Eonwe Valar: You might als obe able to infer some difference in styles and habitats from UT
ArPharazonV: all the Hobbit seems to speak about, is the halls themselves, and a few feast-clearings...
ArPharazonV: I have a feeling I'm quite over my head here
Eonwe Valar: best way to keep that from happening is to not be to extravagant
Eonwe Valar: *too
Eonwe Valar: there are some things you can learn about forest dwellings from Lothlorien, but the Mirkwood Elves probably have their own styles.
Eonwe Valar: Difference in the upbringing of the leadership would cause that in part
ArPharazonV: lemme see... did they live in trees, for instance?
ArPharazonV: the people outside the halls?
ArPharazonV: or did they have wooden homes?
Eonwe Valar: I think UT mentions they did
Eonwe Valar: Look in the chapter about Celeborn and Galadriel
Eonwe Valar: Same place oropher is mentioned
ArPharazonV: large section... and I don't have much time... I was hoping you knew something from memory :-)
ArPharazonV: right now, I'm getting my inspiration from a Monkey Island fan-game....
Eonwe Valar: might not be the best place for inspiration, hehe :}
ArPharazonV: well, they had a community living in circle of treetops
ArPharazonV: whole buildings, taverns and etc were built on top of them, and they were connected by wooden planks at great height
ArPharazonV: now I won't make it that drastic, but still...
ArPharazonV: what does 'to traverse' again?
Eonwe Valar: to travel
Eonwe Valar: to move along
ArPharazonV: so if I say a clearing was traversed by local guards and people going from tree to tree... would that be correct English?
Eonwe Valar: or through
Eonwe Valar: well, in the sense you give, I don't think it would fit for the guards
ArPharazonV: for the guards 'patrolled' would be better, I guess...
Eonwe Valar: the term "traverse" gives me an impression of one direction, while the guards would be going back and forth
Eonwe Valar: yes
ArPharazonV: . Within the clearing, Elven community thrived. In the treetops there were many conversations going on, and the clearing was patrolled by local guards, with local inhabitants traveling to other trees.
ArPharazonV: hmm... 'being patrolled' would fit better
Eonwe Valar: We've already said the majority of Elves are probably in the mountain-halls
Eonwe Valar: Or at least I'm pretty sure we have
ArPharazonV: really? hmm...
Eonwe Valar: afk for a few
VardaValar1: You mean in Mirkwood? Only in times of trouble
ArPharazonV: not at the time of this chapter?
VardaValar1: Pardon. You were talking about the rp
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: Mixed up with conversation of Orodreth-V's book, sorry
VardaValar1: If the troubles have been very bad, elves are starting to move into the halls
VardaValar1: I thought it was recent and we were reporting it
ArPharazonV: where does it say so?
VardaValar1: Maybe I should re-read
VardaValar1: Where does what say what?
ArPharazonV: that elves are starting to move into the halls? where in the rp?
VardaValar1: Nowhere that I know of
ArPharazonV: now I'm confused...
VardaValar1: Like I said, I thought we were reporting the troubles, so they have not gone to the Halls
ArPharazonV: oh, ok
VardaValar1: If they've already been reported, then yes they are starting to move some folk in
ArPharazonV: well, let's say we're the reporters... I'll adapt my post-in-making
VardaValar1: Sounds as if we need to get together on this, since Eonwe said differently
Eonwe Valar: back
VardaValar1: Welcome back : )
Eonwe Valar: I thought Fainan had mentioned it, might have said they need to move people in,..
TurgonjustTurgon: welcome back :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
VardaValar1: Hi Turgon : )
TurgonjustTurgon: only back for a little while
TurgonjustTurgon: waiting in DaoC to get ported :-)
VardaValar1: We run back and forth
VardaValar1: ahh, you still play : )
TurgonjustTurgon: but of course :-)
VardaValar1: Did you join that melded guild of Valar and Stormwolves?
TurgonjustTurgon: as I said during gaming, I made my first plat today :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: nope
VardaValar1: platinum, ahh
TurgonjustTurgon: I actually moved to Gaheris, where Alatar and Gerontius dwell
VardaValar1: not platform
TurgonjustTurgon: and have joined the guild they were in
VardaValar1: Have you seen them?
TurgonjustTurgon: briefly, aye
TurgonjustTurgon: very briefly
VardaValar1: Wondered if they still wanted to be in the main guild
TurgonjustTurgon: I'll ask them if I run along into them
TurgonjustTurgon: that doesn't sound exactly right.... I think I'll have to leave the "along" out of it :-)
ArPharazonV: well, my post has been made
TurgonjustTurgon: Porting is taking a while....
VardaValar1: What is the guild name you are in now?
TurgonjustTurgon: Runs with Scissors
VardaValar1: We try to keep track of then for EQ
VardaValar1: lol!
VardaValar1: Thanks
VardaValar1: Very cute : )
TurgonjustTurgon: why is that lol...?
VardaValar1: To find each other
VardaValar1: We can join each other's guilds as you did
Eonwe Valar: The only cheer she saw was that this did not seem an attack on the elves' home,
although it was probably enough to drive them into the underground fortress.
Eonwe Valar: Little or none of the usual help would be found on the main living areas of the flets.
TurgonjustTurgon: not that much of a coincidence that I joined Al's and Gero's guild actually
Eonwe Valar: Said by Fainan,.. that's probably what threw me
TurgonjustTurgon: before I moved to Gaheris, I met briefly with Irmo and he told me they had mostly moved to Gaheris, guild Runs with Scissors
TurgonjustTurgon: so I immediately searched out RWS and asked if I could join :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: once I moved that is :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: I went from 0 to 40 in less than a week's time before my comp broke down
ArPharazonV: so... needs my post correction, or not, Eonwe?
VardaValar1: Are we the reporters of the troubles or not?
Eonwe Valar: based on that, it's a supposition based on what Fainan does know about the force attacking us (which is what we all know, not much) and the reaction of her king. It sounds like she thinks they may have crossed the river
Eonwe Valar: she may be relieved to find they did not :}
VardaValar1: You bet!
TurgonjustTurgon: do keep in mind Estarion's story here
VardaValar1: He left the group to see his family in their flet?
Eonwe Valar: hmm,.. which part affects this?
TurgonjustTurgon: well, remember that he was sent out to find deliverance for his people?
ArPharazonV: me? I left the group to see my family in their flet, yes
ArPharazonV: because if anybody could take care of Helvy
ArPharazonV: it would be them
Eonwe Valar: I don't imagine Estarion snuck quietly past a large group of spiders heading to the mountain keep?
TurgonjustTurgon: neh, not that good
TurgonjustTurgon: but the point is
TurgonjustTurgon: they may be part of a larger evil
VardaValar1: It's called Sauron : )
TurgonjustTurgon: or a glimpse to see that Evil is stirring in the world again
Orodreth V: I gotta go folks.
VardaValar1: Namarie, Orodreth
ArPharazonV: but anyway, if you desire to criticize the details of the post
ArPharazonV: Namarie
TurgonjustTurgon: When does this take place?
Orodreth V: (ignoring th fact that I was kickded off 40 minute ago)
Eonwe Valar: well, technically it's called Morgoth, but Sauron is his right-hand man :}
TurgonjustTurgon: after LotR, right?
ArPharazonV: you'll have to say so tomorrow, or in the comments
VardaValar1: Boot prints don't look bad, Oro
Eonwe Valar: take care Orodreth :}
ArPharazonV: because I'm leaving you for the night
Orodreth V: But I'm gonna try and leave this on to log it.
VardaValar1: Dol Guldur is gettin bad in our area
Eonwe Valar: sleep well Phar :}
ArPharazonV: thnx
VardaValar1: All the ringwraiths left it to chase the Ring, unhorsed and sent back to Sauron at this time
ArPharazonV: btw, we're doing this during 'the council of Elrond' and 'the ring goes south', I believe
VardaValar1: So who's running Dol Guldur?
Eonwe Valar: RIght now, Turgon, we were discussing whether Thranduil and the Elves of Mirkwood were already in the mountain keep due to the creatures attacking us, or if they had not been attacked yet
Eonwe Valar: We decided they were not and that we are reporting the danger
VardaValar1: Right, Phar
Eonwe Valar: We're in the later part of "The COuncil of Elrond" right now
ArPharazonV: I'll save, and send the transcript... don't forget to save the discussion after I leave, I'm interested in what you all conclude in the nearby minutes
TurgonjustTurgon: so, this is basically just prior, or during the Hobbit, correct?
Eonwe Valar: this is in LotR
VardaValar1: No
VardaValar1: This is Council of Elrond
ArPharazonV: lotr, book 2
Eonwe Valar: I'm one of the scouts sent from Rivendell to check the safety of the roads
VardaValar1: We are some of the scouts sent out before the Fellowship leaves Rivendell
ArPharazonV: Frodo is enjoying his vacation in Rivendell
TurgonjustTurgon: ah, ok
VardaValar1: Eonwe and Haran are the actual scouts
VardaValar1: We in lovely Greenwood are escorting important visitors with an unknown undoubtedly important errand
ArPharazonV: yup, sure are
VardaValar1: We ran into Estarion on the way
VardaValar1: and a large bird
ArPharazonV: and I'm saving now.... remember to add the time after my absence to the transcript, I wanna read more on what you discuss now!
ArPharazonV: it is saved
VardaValar1: I save now and then as we go along, just in case
VardaValar1: Thanks, Pharazon!
ArPharazonV: good, I look forward to reading it :-)
ArPharazonV: no, thank you!
TurgonjustTurgon: Phar
TurgonjustTurgon: if you want to get the time as of now, press f2
Eonwe Valar: Don't forget a young lady named Lomelinde :}
VardaValar1: Aye!
ArPharazonV: oh, nice... thank you!
ArPharazonV: I've got time!
VardaValar1: Egad! That added times all up and down the transcript
VardaValar1: in CST
TurgonjustTurgon: then you get the time after which a message has been sent
ArPharazonV: I shall save again :-)
Eonwe Valar: interesting :}
TurgonjustTurgon: like this: VardaValar1 (19:26:12): Aye!
VardaValar1: I'll drop the times, confuses things if not EST
TurgonjustTurgon: in VST of course :-)
ArPharazonV: TurgonjustTurgon (1:26:55): like this:
TurgonjustTurgon: indeed Phar :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: fast student :-)
VardaValar1: Toggled off nicely.
VardaValar1: Very handy
ArPharazonV: lol, it's my own timezone
Eonwe Valar: ArPharazonV (6:26:53 PM): TurgonjustTurgon (1:26:55): like this:
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: Eonwe Valar (1:27:32): ArPharazonV (6:26:53 PM): TurgonjustTurgon (1:26:55): like this:
ArPharazonV: :-D
Eonwe Valar: ok enough of this :}
Eonwe Valar: it could go on forever :}
ArPharazonV: yes, I shall save anew... beware my time is GMT +1
Eonwe Valar: So, who thinks Auros is a nobleman (Elf)? :}
VardaValar1: He sounds like nobility of some level
VardaValar1: Maybe one of those elflords they mentioned at the Council
VardaValar1: In the actual MeO, he'll have to be a young guy
Eonwe Valar: relatively, aye
VardaValar1: Fine for our yarn : )
Eonwe Valar: Who thinks he is a commoner? :}
VardaValar1: We can handle more because we are text only
VardaValar1: Depends on what you think a commoner is
ArPharazonV: it is sent
ArPharazonV: could you check?
Eonwe Valar: aye, no need for "balance" since we don't have to make it fair for thousands of people. We can balance ourselves just fine :}
VardaValar1: If Elrond is the lord of Rivendell, his sons are his heirs, that makes Glorfindel a commoner
VardaValar1: ok
Eonwe Valar: well, commoner as opposed to being of nobility,.. GLorfindel was an Elf-Lord of GOndolin, hence not a commner
VardaValar1: got a veen218 mail : )
ArPharazonV: ok, good :-)
VardaValar1: But he died and there is no Gondolin : )
ArPharazonV: Namarie
VardaValar1: He's nobility, but not landed nobility
Eonwe Valar: And here's the final question : "WHo thinks it doesn't matter, that their character is would like him or hate him either way? " :}
Eonwe Valar: true
ArPharazonV: see ya all next week
VardaValar1: My character likes him
VardaValar1: Namarie
GwaihirValar: Commoner? My former self was not a commoner!
VardaValar1: She's not sure if he's a lord or just being a Noldo : )
ArPharazonV: my character doesn't like him that much... yet
Eonwe Valar: but then an exiled king would be a "commoner"
ArPharazonV: but things change
ArPharazonV: buhbye
VardaValar1: Got Gwaihir off his roost : )
VardaValar1: Right, Eonwe : )
GwaihirValar: I really don't believe that the Elves follow a system of such...
ArPharazonV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: I don't think the exiled king would agree with that :}
GwaihirValar: 'commoner' would not be a term that existed within the Elven tongue I don't think
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: What do we think a commoner is?
VardaValar1: Is it his ancestry or his position?
VardaValar1: In the US, it's position
VardaValar1: In a monarchy, it's ancestry
VardaValar1: Since Arda has monarchs, it's ancestry
GwaihirValar: I think that the Elven peoples didn't really focus on 'rank' except in terms of following a leader...
VardaValar1: The elves had ancestral kings and royalty
GwaihirValar: so I can't believe they'd ascribe the term 'commoner'...
Eonwe Valar: A commoner would be someone not born with "noble" blood, hence not a lord, lady, duke, etc
VardaValar1: I was just pulling Eonwe's boot earlier
GwaihirValar: yes, they did, and that is necessary for a stable society... BUT I don't believe that they really followed a nobility/commoner setup...
VardaValar1: Among elves, Noldo may consider their blood more royal since it went through Valinor
VardaValar1: Belief is not important. It is what we read in the books.
Eonwe Valar: Aye,.. so in the eyes of some Noldor, any Noldor could be considered and "Elf Lord" when compared to the Moriquendi
GwaihirValar: and, it seemed with how the 'Head of the House of the Golden Flower' was written that most families were considered 'nobility'
VardaValar1: Book and real life, not same
VardaValar1: Here's another fun thought
VardaValar1: How are silvans and avari different? Are they?
Eonwe Valar: Well, the heads of houses are considered nobility because they are the head of that house
GwaihirValar: yes, but all of the house would thus be nobility as well by sharing blood
VardaValar1: Aye, a head of a huge house is acting as a lord
Eonwe Valar: in its simplest form, nobility is the head of a house, the patriarch/matriarch
GwaihirValar: if we're using ancestry
VardaValar1: The importance in the house by blood would be his heirs
VardaValar1: Aye, patriarchal system
GwaihirValar: but even in a patriarchal system, the women were still considered nobility.
GwaihirValar: They weren't able to be heirsb
VardaValar1: Sure
VardaValar1: Silmarien could pass on royal blood
Eonwe Valar: this would be the firstborn in most cases, who after several genreations ,the firstborn of the firstborn ad nausium, would be the "king" of an entire people with the heads of the other houses his high-lords
Eonwe Valar: afk for a sec
VardaValar1: aye
Eonwe Valar: back
VardaValar1: Patriarchal system means figuring the bloodline through the father, not the mother
GwaihirValar: the first born were the Heads, yes, but if the 'Houses' of the Elves were generally equal except the 'true' royalty... which they seemed to be(I'm going based on the fact that I never really saw the 'prejudice' that exists
GwaihirValar: within a 'rank-based' society...
GwaihirValar: then all of the houses would classify as 'nobility' and thus all members of the houses...
VardaValar1: JRRT tended to focus on the nobility. We saw very little of the others
GwaihirValar: they didn't even seem to exist within the Elven societies though
VardaValar1: You are saying they had no "commoners"?
GwaihirValar: not that I saw anywhere
VardaValar1: Then I think your definition of nobility needs work : )
Eonwe Valar: the guards at the gate of Gondolin were commoners
GwaihirValar: Are we sure of that?
Eonwe Valar: typically, a lord doesn't get put to stand at a gate :}
VardaValar1: You might say "nobles" were hereditary admins
TurgonjustTurgon: not entirely Eonwe
GwaihirValar: nobility extends beyond lord... and often the children of great lords joined guards
VardaValar1: Non-admin, commoner
TurgonjustTurgon: Ecthelion was Lord of the Fountains, Captain of the Guard at the Seventh Gate
GwaihirValar: guards/military units
Eonwe Valar: aye, Gwaihir
VardaValar1: Head of soldiers, admin
GwaihirValar: AND if the head of the child's household wished for him to not recieve special treatment
VardaValar1: Head of anything is admin
GwaihirValar: he would've very LIKELY been spending time on the gates
GwaihirValar: just like any other soldier.
VardaValar1: And who would be "just any other soldier"?
Eonwe Valar: Ecthelion did not actually stand at the gate for a watch.
TurgonjustTurgon: true, Gwaihir
TurgonjustTurgon: he did on Tuor and Voronwe's arrival
GwaihirValar: Which is the problem... we don't get a very good look at the society of the Elves... so we really can't state...
VardaValar1: Why call anyone a noble if you're going to say they were all nobles?
Eonwe Valar: Did Faramir stand guard in Henneth Annun? No. He was free to make rounds if he wished, to check on his soldiers
GwaihirValar: Which is what I'm trying to say... perhaps 'nobility' wasn't really a consideration within Elven societies...
Eonwe Valar: If the guy in charge is standing a watch, he can't make sure everybody else is doing their part.
VardaValar1: A person can have tthe quality of being noble without being born to the nobility.
GwaihirValar: Eonwe, that's not true...
TurgonjustTurgon: what I think is that generally leadership was passed on to sons more to "good genes" than the actual father-son thing
VardaValar1: Eonwe is quite right : )
GwaihirValar: I've seen cases of leaders performing menial tasks...
GwaihirValar: especially leaders of guards and scouts
Eonwe Valar: I've been a manager, Gwaihir, I know what it's like :}
VardaValar1: Yes, leaders perform tasks, but they can delegate
Eonwe Valar: That wasn't my point, Gwaihir.
TurgonjustTurgon: true, Eonwe, but you forget one thing
GwaihirValar: lead by example... if you're not willing to stand a shift of guard, how do you expect others to...
Eonwe Valar: A leader needs to be free to "make rounds" make sure everything is getting done the way it needs to be done.
TurgonjustTurgon: making rounds is part of the leader, part of the watch
VardaValar1: Ever been around the military?
GwaihirValar: if a leader trusts his troups and has trained them well, he doesn't need to ALWAYS make his rounds
TurgonjustTurgon: the watch is not entirely made out of watchers :-)
VardaValar1: There's a saying, "Point and grunt"
GwaihirValar: I'm NOT very fond of the way militaries work nowadays... I consider them practically jokes.
Eonwe Valar: If he's the guard on duty, he has to stand there, making it difficult to make rounds.
GwaihirValar: Yet, if he trusts his troups, he doesn't need to make rounds EVERY time
GwaihirValar: and can stand a shift of guard.
TurgonjustTurgon: you're Canadian, you have no standing army, so lol
VardaValar1: What we think of an organization does not change what it is, and we have to write our story with what is.
Eonwe Valar: Gwaihir, it's not simply a matter of trust
GwaihirValar: if his army is trusted and capable...
VardaValar1: Trust has little to do with it
VardaValar1: Size does
GwaihirValar: I don't think the Guard of Gondolin was a huge size...
TurgonjustTurgon: Gwaihir, part of that trust is that they expect their Captain to make his rounds
Eonwe Valar: Morale is also a factor
VardaValar1: If you reach a group of eight, you need a leader, in most cases.
GwaihirValar: Turgon... most of the time people are nervous when their leader is around.
TurgonjustTurgon: a leader who doesn't show his face once in a while, if only to check up, is considered weak and lazy
GwaihirValar: not if he's standing a shift of guard
VardaValar1: Guess I'm not a leader if I don't make you nervous : )
GwaihirValar: and the troup KNOWS it
GwaihirValar: they would have MORE respect for him
GwaihirValar: if he's out there doing a shift himself
VardaValar1: Acting like one of the guys wrecks a military leader
GwaihirValar: That's a flaw in our society's beliefs.
Eonwe Valar: If a leader makes rounds, he is observing the situation from every point, seeing what his guards are seeing, not simply one part of the view.
VardaValar1: Not modern society, very old concept
TurgonjustTurgon: well, what happens to Chain of Command, if everyone has the same thing to do....
TurgonjustTurgon: a leader's task simply lies in other areas
GwaihirValar: I'm looking at a group leader, not the high commander of an entire army... a squad leader SHOULD be taking his shift...
TurgonjustTurgon: it doesn't diminish anything he does because he simply does less "grunt-work"
GwaihirValar: the Captain of the entire army... that's a different story...
GwaihirValar: Ecthelion was the head of a Guard... he probably didn't have a huge troupe to oversee... I wouldn't be surprised if he was taking his hand and doing a shift himself
Eonwe Valar: A squad leader more than likely puts in more time than any one of his soldiers
Eonwe Valar: they typically do several rounds and have several reports
TurgonjustTurgon: and their task is the hardest of all
TurgonjustTurgon: he has to keep both his squad together and running, while at the same time appeasing his superior
GwaihirValar: I'm thinking we just have opposite views of the subject, and its' another of those 'I can't convince you, you can't convince me' cases...
TurgonjustTurgon: superiors*
TurgonjustTurgon: and I know this from the time I was checking out for a job in the dutch military
Eonwe Valar: I speak from experience, having been a manager :}
GwaihirValar: I still think military units nowadays are a joke... I have no respect for the military anymore *sighs*
TurgonjustTurgon: and it's not that they sit on their behinds all day long and make their occasional round, they have their front-line experience as well
TurgonjustTurgon: once again, Canadian :-)
GwaihirValar: I'm referring to other places militaries
Eonwe Valar: I typically was in several places, almost at once.
VardaValar1: We were also talking about ancient times
GwaihirValar: looking at the ways military groups operate
Eonwe Valar: Plus I had paperwork to get done every night. I'm just glad I didn't have the scheduling on top of that.
GwaihirValar: honestly... the only one of the managers at my store I have respect for is Brian
Eonwe Valar: A military is easier,.. you tell a guy to stand apost and there's no them getting around it :}
VardaValar1: hehe
GwaihirValar: and that's because he actually gets down and DOES the work
GwaihirValar: he helps in my department once in a while
GwaihirValar: he goes and helps in other departments sometimes
Eonwe Valar: So did I, but I couldn't always be right there.
GwaihirValar: that's what I'm saying... a good leader has to DO the work
GwaihirValar: not just oversee
GwaihirValar: but he has to take his time and be DOING the work
GwaihirValar: like in a Guard, the leader should take time once in a while STANDING guard
Eonwe Valar: Part of being a good leader is to know where to jump in and wher eto let them do their job.
TurgonjustTurgon: for example, it might offend someone who is doing a good job and you help him out
VardaValar1: true
GwaihirValar: depends on how you help
GwaihirValar: if it's busy
TurgonjustTurgon: it's like slapping him in the face and saying he is lousy at it
GwaihirValar: and you come in and say 'here let me give you a hand', it's a relief
GwaihirValar: I know, I've had days where, despite doing a good job, there were things I just couldn't get to
GwaihirValar: like yesterday
Eonwe Valar: That's part of knowing where to jump in
TurgonjustTurgon: yes, but if you're a manager, you have more things on your hand than to help out a person doing a good job
Eonwe Valar: that's why a leader shouldn't be nailed down to one spot
TurgonjustTurgon: like helping someone who can't quite cope
GwaihirValar: okay, we're arguing completely different things... not even the same topic anymore, I don't think...
Eonwe Valar: if the leader is stuck in one spot, he can't go help another person in another spot.
TurgonjustTurgon: not quite, Gwai :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: it's just that a leader / manager DOES do a lot of work, just not always visible
GwaihirValar: I mean he has to be ABLE to do, and sometimes just DO, the work that he asks his underlings to do
VardaValar1: I'm currently in 4 guild jobs right now, so please pardon if I'm not speaking much here. ;-)
GwaihirValar: hehe, no problem
GwaihirValar: Rather than be just overseeing
TurgonjustTurgon: there's your perfect example :-)
GwaihirValar: that's what *I* am saying
TurgonjustTurgon: I completely agree with you Gwai
GwaihirValar: a leader of the Guard has to take a shift Guarding, a scout leader has to go out scouting sometimes, a manager has to stand in and do the work beside the employees sometimes
GwaihirValar: or else they plain and simple do NOT deserve respect
TurgonjustTurgon: but you can't judge anyone on what he doesn't do based one what you can't see he DOES do
GwaihirValar: I'm not saying they do nothing else
GwaihirValar: but if you're going to lead WITHOUT doing any of the things you ask your underlings to do, you don't deserve it.
Eonwe Valar: who do the scouts report to while the leader is out scouting then?
GwaihirValar: every leader has an assistand.
GwaihirValar: assistant*
TurgonjustTurgon: 2nd or 3rd in command
GwaihirValar: exactly
TurgonjustTurgon: or maybe the leader's superior if present
TurgonjustTurgon: Gwai does have a point, though it doesn't always apply
Eonwe Valar: and if the leader's superior says "you need to be here, not out scouting?"
TurgonjustTurgon: that's where the "it doesn't always apply" come in
GwaihirValar: if the leader's superior knows what HE is doing, he will understand.
GwaihirValar: that's why you need a competent group.
GwaihirValar: With a competent leader
GwaihirValar: and etc.
TurgonjustTurgon: for example, the owner of a department store as a lawyer hired to do his legal work, does the owner actually DO the lawyers job at times?
TurgonjustTurgon: has*
GwaihirValar: that's definitely a different story
Eonwe Valar: Speaking from a military standing, if a leader goes out from camp, he needs to take a small group, or else he runs a greater risk of getting captured and endangering the plans of his superiors
GwaihirValar: I'm referring to a leader of a small group
GwaihirValar: not the overall leader of a large group
VardaValar1: You changed the subject, aye : )
GwaihirValar: but every large group is broken down into smaller groups....
Eonwe Valar: But taking a group makes being unnoticed harder
GwaihirValar: and each of those smaller groups has subleaders
TurgonjustTurgon: no I didn't
TurgonjustTurgon: department stores here aren't all that large
GwaihirValar: Turgon, yes you did lol
VardaValar1: I meant Gwaihir
GwaihirValar: if they're 'department' stores
GwaihirValar: EVERY department is it's own group
GwaihirValar: may only have a few employees each
TurgonjustTurgon: not every group has a direct leader
VardaValar1: We were talking about nobility in monarchies, then went to military, then elsewhere : )
GwaihirValar: hehe
GwaihirValar: oh, the subject has changed, but this IS Valar we're dealing with ;-)
VardaValar1: We were discussing our rp
TurgonjustTurgon: lol :-)
VardaValar1: Very right, Gwaihir!
GwaihirValar: but... every group does have a leader... heck, my department is the smallest department in the store, with only like 4 employees
VardaValar1: We were working out our MeO rp in the forum
GwaihirValar: and WE have a head
GwaihirValar: oh, sry, didn't know... didn't have time to read back heh
TurgonjustTurgon: well, I have to admit, Gwaihir is right, in the basics
VardaValar1: np
GwaihirValar: and our department's head has a boss
GwaihirValar: and then there's the manager above him
TurgonjustTurgon: anywhere from the basics is a tad more complicated than claimed
GwaihirValar: that's why they're the 'basics'
VardaValar1: Ideal gas is not likely to be found : ) For the chem students here
Eonwe Valar: sounds familiar, but it's been a few years since I took chemistry :}
GwaihirValar: but I still say the leader of any small group needs to sometimes get down and do the things he asks his underlings to do
TurgonjustTurgon: well, talking about nobility is anywhere but basics lol
GwaihirValar: if he wants to deserve respect
VardaValar1: Many times a leader came up through the ranks and knows what the others he is leading are doing
Eonwe Valar: I agree with you in every aspect except the nailing the leader down to one spot when avoidable :}
VardaValar1: Aye on the nailing
GwaihirValar: the leader is never truly nailed... if something comes up where he feels he needs to move, he can always get someone else to do it...
GwaihirValar: ex. a Guard always knows, that except on leave days, they have to be ready to get up at any time... so if the Guard leader is taking a shift, he could very easily send off a messenger(that's what they're there for) to wake up a
Eonwe Valar: Faramir was an example of the good leader. His men loved him, and he asked nothing that he wouldn't do himself (implied), but I seriously doubt he stood a watch in the same manner his men did. He would've made rounds.
GwaihirValar: n off-duty Guard to take over if something comes up
GwaihirValar: I'm sure he did sometimes
GwaihirValar: prolly not terribly often
GwaihirValar: but I'm sure he took his turn at the watch sometimes
Eonwe Valar: You can only get someone else to do it if you have someone to cycle in there. The way you describe it Gwaihir, he would actually be in the roster and thus could not move from that spot.
Eonwe Valar: If he is not on the roster, he is free to stand watch wherever he chooses, hence my point.
GwaihirValar: yes he could
GwaihirValar: they would have to have a system of getting messages
GwaihirValar: without having to move... so he could just send a message saying he needed a standin
TurgonjustTurgon: anyways, I am afraid I must retire, early rise for me tomorrow
TurgonjustTurgon: Namarie everyone
Eonwe Valar: but he would not be able to leave until that standin came
GwaihirValar: however... if he DOESN'T do it himself sometimes, how else do the people he oversees KNOW he'd do anything he'd ask them to
Eonwe Valar: sleep well Turgon
GwaihirValar: sleep well
TurgonjustTurgon has left the room.
GwaihirValar: I highly doubt it would take long
GwaihirValar: unless the group was highly disorganized, in which case the leader wouldn't matter...
VardaValar1: Namarie, Turgon
Eonwe Valar: until that standin came, he would have to stay there
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
GwaihirValar: that's true, but they'd probably have someone waiting in case someone needs to be filled in for
GwaihirValar: I mean, even the normal scouts would have occasions when they'd need it
Eonwe Valar: if you have part of your group on guard and the other part asleep, it may take a few minutes to get dressed :}
VardaValar1: That would be a waste of someone's time
GwaihirValar: not necessarily
GwaihirValar: they'd need to have someone as a messenger
GwaihirValar: I highly doubt a scout group would have non-scouts with them
GwaihirValar: so the messenger would be scout-trained
GwaihirValar: and be able to standin
VardaValar1: and not be able to message
GwaihirValar: then they wake someone up
GwaihirValar: THAT duty can be lived without for 5 minutes
VardaValar1: Assuming all goes by plan
GwaihirValar: also... in wartime... people slept light and half-armoured...
GwaihirValar: so it didn't take long to get ready
GwaihirValar: at least, good soldiers did
GwaihirValar: which means it wouldn't take long
Eonwe Valar: it still takes time for that soldier to get there
GwaihirValar: also, any good troupe would patrol in pairs... so he could leave his partner alone while his replacement travelled...
Eonwe Valar: and if something happened at that spot at that moment?
Eonwe Valar: I would think you wouldn't leave a weak spot in your defense, as simple a defense as it may be
Eonwe Valar: On the other hand, if he is free, then wherever he goes is stronger by one person for the time he is there
VardaValar1: Buddy system. Two together. If one falls, the other helps him up
GwaihirValar: Also it's harder to sneak up on two people
VardaValar1: aye
GwaihirValar: Anyways, neither of us really know, and I'm tired, drained, adn emotionally exhausted... so I think I'm going to go and slaughter some things in either d2x or tft... or maybe ff9
Eonwe Valar: hf :}
VardaValar1: Have fun
GwaihirValar: thank you... want me to leave my presence here to hold room up...?
VardaValar1: Nice, but no longer in the chat challenge
VardaValar1: Feel free to cut your lag : )
GwaihirValar: oh, I don't get lag either way :-)
GwaihirValar: only when bnet has problems
GwaihirValar: lol
VardaValar1: Nice!
GwaihirValar: or when my isp decides to go down
GwaihirValar: but if you want me to try to leave it up all the time for people's convenience, I'd be more than happy to
VardaValar1: That's sweet, thanks
GwaihirValar: well, I'm off to play now... wish me luck with the slaughter :-)
VardaValar1: (Gals say things like "sweet", don't be offended)
GwaihirValar: I know
VardaValar1: Happy slaughtering
Eonwe Valar: Only if you're killing evil things :}
GwaihirValar: Well, I may be undead in wc3... so the slaughtering may not be of evil things... but it'll be evil from my character's perspective ;-)
VardaValar1: Pharazon left... ; )
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Ah perspective
Eonwe Valar: ew undead,..it's no mistake I like Paladins :}
VardaValar1: Still like elves
GwaihirValar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Exorcism in WC2 was great :} a full mana bar could kill a death knight :}
VardaValar1: sparkles around the trees instead of bashing trees
GwaihirValar: well, I play DotA and I play the side I get on
GwaihirValar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: I like the Night Elves as well, but I would love to see an Elf Paladin :}
VardaValar1: That would be cool indeed!
Eonwe Valar: or at least a WC3 Elf hero with a sword and withotu a helmet :}
Eonwe Valar: *without
VardaValar1: hmm, maybe we could work out a helmet that lets him retain elvish appearance
VardaValar1: Show ears and hair, for instance
Eonwe Valar: would have to use the WC3 art tools as far as I know, which requires purchase of a certain art program
Eonwe Valar: don't recall its name
VardaValar1: money, always with us
GwaihirValar: or you could download a free trial
GwaihirValar: and when it expires... download another
GwaihirValar: most programs allow free trials
Eonwe Valar: last time I tried that it didn't let me work the new trial
Eonwe Valar: it wasn't with the art thing, but it was with a trial program,..
Eonwe Valar: of some sort
GwaihirValar: hmm... that's odd, anyways, I'm off to kill stuff... take care!
GwaihirValar: afk now
Eonwe Valar: hf :}
VardaValar1: Slowly building the elf page. Only down to Argon now
Eonwe Valar: wow
VardaValar1: Eowyn's WC3 character is past the two hour mark now
VardaValar1: All connected papers done
Eonwe Valar: glad to hear
VardaValar1: Guess I'll make another stab at Sauron : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Just logged off WC3,.. will get it runnign again
VardaValar1: oops, Gwaihir says needs 3 hours
GwaihirValar: I think so
VardaValar1: he was not sure though
GwaihirValar: it's 2 or 3
GwaihirValar: I tend to alt tab a lot while playing ;-)
VardaValar1: Another reason to keep the chat room up : )
VardaValar1: Thanks
GwaihirValar: 3 hours is a safer mark anyways
VardaValar1: maybe I should leave this account up another hour then
GwaihirValar: that way you're DEFINITELY over 2
GwaihirValar: and if it's 3... better safe than sorry
VardaValar1: Timer said well over 2
VardaValar1: aye
VardaValar1: timer running again
VardaValar1: hope channel sitting is enough
GwaihirValar: should be
VardaValar1: yay
GwaihirValar: with d2x chars you need to be in game, but accounts just need to be online
Eonwe Valar: hmm very interesting
Eonwe Valar: Eowyn's old account had disappeared from the WC3 roster in bnet when the new account came in, but the old one was on the web page,.. now it seems her new account is gone and her old one is back,..
VardaValar1: Poor Bnet. Database is so confused
GwaihirValar: odd
Orodreth V: Boo.
Orodreth V: Anyone here?
GwaihirValar: b
VardaValar1: Nope : )
Orodreth V: Just making sure.
VardaValar1: Good idea!
VardaValar1: Can you imagine? No article in our Encyc about Arwen, just pictures
VardaValar1: With this many guys, you'd think we'd have some good articles for her
Orodreth V: That was a low blow.
Eonwe Valar: no articles of Arwen? wow
VardaValar1: I'm bad : )
GwaihirValar: none of us want to put her beauty into words and thus diminish it's glory, that's all... we have too much respect ;-)
Eonwe Valar: but,.. we have articles on Varda, Melian, and Luthien,.. :}
Orodreth V: *elbows Eonwe* Shhhh!
GwaihirValar: Well, we feel we've diminished the beuaty of enougho f the ladies... we're gonna leave Arwen alone ;-)
VardaValar1: Arwen is prettier! oh the sorrow
Eonwe Valar: hehe ok :}
GwaihirValar: nah, it's just that we decided we've done enough ;-)
VardaValar1: So you're going to stick me with it? : )
Eonwe Valar: I think Gwaihir needs to send in an article on Gilraen :}
GwaihirValar: hehe... there's nothing really about her almost
GwaihirValar: unless you want me to write it about MY Gilraen ;-)
GwaihirValar: but then that's personal :-)
Eonwe Valar: ok, you can write my C++ programs instead :}
GwaihirValar: heh
Eonwe Valar: oh wait, you can't submit those to the Encyclopedia,.. :}
Orodreth V: Still wish someone here played Diplo. you all are on more often then my friend who play it normaly. :-P
Eonwe Valar: one a week is more often that your friend? :}
Eonwe Valar: *once
Eonwe Valar: hmm indeed strange,.. no sign of Eowyn's new account on the Profile web page,..
VardaValar1: If there is nothing much about someone, the article is much easier to write!
VardaValar1: Try to write one on a Fellowship member and the material is in piles that bogs one down
GwaihirValar: All I've seen about her is that she was fairly foresighted, was joined with Arathorn, and was the mother of Aragorn and named him Estel...
VardaValar1: Eowyn's account has been up three hours
VardaValar1: Maybe I need to take it off?
VardaValar1: That's enough for an article, Gwai
Eonwe Valar: well, her account isn't showing in bnet either,..
GwaihirValar: that's not up there already?
VardaValar1: Make it into coherent sentences with references and send it in : )
Eonwe Valar: the new one not showing on the clan roster that is
VardaValar1: Eowyn is sitting in Clan Vala channel right now
Eonwe Valar: I whispered the account,.. let me know if you see the green
VardaValar1: I saw the green
VardaValar1: I see you in the channel too
GwaihirValar: I saw the green, I opened up...... wait a minute... wrong word, horrible song, bad joke... *shuts up now*
GwaihirValar: ;-)
VardaValar1: Can you see the regular white typing?
GwaihirValar: I can
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: Cool
VardaValar1: oops, Eonwe crashed?
GwaihirValar: seems so
VardaValar1: That could be why he did not see it
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: can everyone hear me?
Eonwe Valar: internet disconnected
GwaihirValar: no, I've gone deaf *runs around screaming*
GwaihirValar: ;-)
GwaihirValar: sorry... in a really wierd mood...
GwaihirValar: delirium, exhaustion, and worry can do that to ya... lol
VardaValar1: I hear you
Eonwe Valar: ok good
Eonwe Valar: Varda's name now a darker green :}
Eonwe Valar: Gwaihir from yellow to purple :}
VardaValar1: Yours is darker green for me too
VardaValar1: It used to be hard to see pale teal
VardaValar1: Gwaihir's shows yellow, hard to see
GwaihirValar: sorry
VardaValar1: Not your fault : )
GwaihirValar: hehe
VardaValar1: Legible, good enough
VardaValar1: Is that what you see, Eonwe?
GwaihirValar: that's one step above my handwriting! ;-)
VardaValar1: Love typing : )
Eonwe Valar: I see purple Gwaihir :}
GwaihirValar: I see dead pe.... err, green Eonwe :-)
VardaValar1: We do have a lot of escapees from the Halls of Mandos
GwaihirValar: hehe
VardaValar1: Oropher there is one
VardaValar1: Orodreth is another
GwaihirValar: my former self was another :-)
VardaValar1: My former self is surely dead by now too, although not in the books
GwaihirValar: you mean Faramir?
VardaValar1: My only previous, aye
GwaihirValar: oh ya, you skipped over the Maia stage, you ambitious woman you ;-)
VardaValar1: Not my idea!!
GwaihirValar: hehe
GwaihirValar: I know
VardaValar1: Eru did that
GwaihirValar: aye, I know, just teasing :-)
VardaValar1: I'm playing along : )
GwaihirValar: :-)
VardaValar1: Must keep the eagles happy for Manwe
GwaihirValar: hehe
GwaihirValar: Doin' a fine job of it :-)
GwaihirValar: Not a single complaint... except ash in the wings when we were asked to fly after Frodo...
GwaihirValar: but... that's easy enough to remedy
VardaValar1: Feather duster!
GwaihirValar: We envy the Gryphons of Velgarth though... those talented Kestra'Chern and Trondi'irn to take care of their every need....
GwaihirValar: pampered hybrids... ;-)
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Might get Landroval for your feather duster until he notices
GwaihirValar: *chuckles* nah, he's gotten more clever over the years...
VardaValar1: Section A of Elves finished except links and uploads. Woot
VardaValar1: Ah well. You have to be more tricksy
MJKeenan123 has left the room.
GwaihirValar: tricksy... nah...
Orodreth V: Triskesy.
Orodreth V: Spell it righter. ;-)
VardaValar1: Tricksy is Gollumesque
VardaValar1: Triskesy is Orodrethesque : )
Orodreth V: I'm so specuil.
VardaValar1: Yep : )
MJKeenan123 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Oropher : )
VardaValar1: No Amroth article. Could use one of those too
VardaValar1: Section A of Elves now online
VardaValar1: Scary part is cutting out the part that was there before. Suppose I missed some?
VardaValar1: *slice*
Orodreth V: *pin drop*
VardaValar1: IM's noisy though : )
VardaValar1: Any idea why Melian was in Middle-earth in the first place?
VardaValar1: Would have to be a guess
VardaValar1: Suppose quite a few Maiar were wandering quietly about?
GwaihirValar: she was probably overseeing some of the flowers and such for Yavanna
VardaValar1: Tom maybe?
VardaValar1: So other Maiar might have been doing the same quietly for their Valar?
GwaihirValar: afterall, Yavanna can't be EVERYWHERE at once :-)
Orodreth V: Maiar probally came over more often then the Valar.
VardaValar1: Orome rode about too
VardaValar1: I agree Orodreth
VardaValar1: More Maiar to come over too : )
Orodreth V: River Maiar, things ike that.
VardaValar1: Ulmo's lot probably very busy : )
VardaValar1: If Goldberry was the Riverwoman's daughter, the Riverwoman had to have been there
GwaihirValar: well, remember, Yavanna was one of the few who never 'gave up on' Middle Earth, if I remember correctly...
Orodreth V: not that anyone here cares, but here's what I've been working on for the past day or so.
VardaValar1: Right
Orodreth V: http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/ik onboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=4169e7e42 b47ffff;act=ST;f=1;t=103
VardaValar1: So you are setting up a Diplo game?
VardaValar1: Nice organizing there
GwaihirValar: so... it's more likely that a Maia of Yavanna would be there than one of any the others nearly... during that time especially
GwaihirValar: and with all of the plants and such... Yavanna had things to do still
VardaValar1: Putting it on the News
Orodreth V: Er.
Orodreth V: don't.
Orodreth V: It's jsut a concept idea right now.
VardaValar1: Maybe they can jump in and help : )
Orodreth V: Eh.
Orodreth V: suppose I shouldn't turn away free publicity. ;-)
VardaValar1: Still want me to take it off? Not uploaded yet
VardaValar1: hehe - ok
VardaValar1: I like to encourage new ventures by our guys
Orodreth V: Heh.
(Varda crashed)
top