Valar Guild

July 18, 2004 Meeting

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
5pm EST (GMT-5)

News page

Transcript from Ar-Pharazon-V . Turgon also sent in a part already included. Thanks to you both!
Meeting Begins
Attending or popped by: (13)
    Members: Aerandir-V/mordacil, Arathorn-V, Ar-Pharazon-V, Bombur-V/MrMonkey2002Blah, Eonwe-Valar (presiding), Finarfin-V/Finarfin010, Luthien-V, Orodreth-V, Oropher-V/MJKeenan123, Thorondor-Valar, Turgon-V, Varda-(Valar)
    Visitor: staind32185 (Meghan/ex-Amarie/ex-Azog's g/f)
    Eonwe-Valar's topic: All the Valar had a part in the creation of Ea. For some, Like Manwë, Ulmo, and Aulë, it is quite obvious what their part was. For others, it is not quite so clear. What part in the creation of Arda did these other Valar/Valier have?

You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."

ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Just a short game of notd
ArPharazonV: 9 soldiers
ThorondorV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: 7 noobs
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ThorondorV: Hey
ArPharazonV: only me and the host could load experience
ArPharazonV: and he had 312 only
ArPharazonV: so, yesterday I went into a game with several pro's, the biggest one had 14 k experience, and I was the lowest with 600
ArPharazonV: today, I was the biggest with that same number....
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
MJKeenan123 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: hehe, didn't knwo I could invite too many people :}
ThorondorV: heya :-)
Eonwe Valar: heya :}
MJKeenan123: little busy atm, raiding air on EQ
ArPharazonV: :-)
ThorondorV: I was just popping in to say hello again. I need to wake up in 7,5 hours
Eonwe Valar: cool :}
Eonwe Valar: only 7.5 hours? might as well stay up then, hang out with us, hehe :}
ArPharazonV: mara lome, thorondor
ThorondorV: hehe :-)
Eonwe Valar: sleep well meldo :}
ThorondorV: Good night fellows
ThorondorV: you too :-)
ThorondorV has left the room.
TurgonjustTurgon: silent in here....
TurgonjustTurgon: I sense this place is in need of a goof
Eonwe Valar: Let's wait a couple more minutes to see if anyoen else comes in
Eonwe Valar: you're wrong, Turgon :}
TurgonjustTurgon: oh well, I'm here anyways :-)
ArPharazonV: this place is always in need of a goof... until Turgon gets here
TurgonjustTurgon: heh
TurgonjustTurgon: too much of a goof I guess? :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: no matter, I love ya still Phara :-*
ArPharazonV: I'm flattered... or disturbed... can't identify the feeling
TurgonjustTurgon: most likely an unsettling mix of the two :-D
ArPharazonV: that's possible as well
Eonwe Valar: I hope this isn't gonna be it for the meeting :}
MJKeenan123: dunno
ArPharazonV: wow, fewer people than ever
TurgonjustTurgon: heh
TurgonjustTurgon: exactly what Phara and I wondered last week around this time
TurgonjustTurgon: and back then it was only the two of us
Orodreth V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: yes, that's right...
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Orodreth V: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: now we're up to 5 :}
Eonwe Valar: Guess we'll go ahead and begin in a sec
Orodreth V: You're luck I woke up when I did. :-P
Orodreth V: (a few minutes ago at best)
TurgonjustTurgon: why would you be asleep at this time anyways?
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's go ahead and begin
Orodreth V: Becasue I was awake 8 or 9 hours ago?
Orodreth V: My body is exacting revenge for the years when I had a hour of sleep. :-P

Meeting Begins:
Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: We have a new member Aerendil, tested after last week's meeting and passed :}
Eonwe Valar: *Aerendir
Eonwe Valar: Greetings from some guys we haven't seen in a while:
Eonwe Valar: Lungorthin's back from 2 weeks in Europe,took a summer job, and moved from Marquette University to Illinois University
Eonwe Valar: He is having trouble reaching games but is looking into doing more webwork for us.
Eonwe Valar: He currently maintains the DAoC front page and the Book List and Reviews for Tolkien Subjects page
Eonwe Valar: Grinbold also says heya :}
Eonwe Valar: *Grimbold
Eonwe Valar: He hoping for wireless Internet in August so he can get back with us again
Eonwe Valar: Any other member News?
Eonwe Valar: Guess not :}
TurgonjustTurgon: apart from that living nightmare in TFT during the week?
Eonwe Valar: Sounds like gaming :}
TurgonjustTurgon: nope, membership
ArPharazonV: living nightmare?
TurgonjustTurgon: you were there as well :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: both you and Phara :-)
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: oh, of course
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead then Turgon, if it's membership
ArPharazonV: the Turg-twin
VardaValar1: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: ah that :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya
TurgonjustTurgon: oh just met a guy named Turgon in TFT somewhere last week
TurgonjustTurgon: was interested in joining, would be gone this weekend, so couldn't get to the meeting, but promised to be at the first meeting he was able to
ArPharazonV: I thought he was multiplying... thoughts of the Apocalypse being imminent swarmed my head
TurgonjustTurgon: more or less, aye :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks for the warning :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Member News?
VardaValar1: I'll be exiting
VardaValar1: on a borrowed comp just to say hi
ArPharazonV: Namarie
VardaValar1: Please email the saved chat!
TurgonjustTurgon: hi :-)
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}
TurgonjustTurgon: and Namarie
ArPharazonV: bye
VardaValar1: Have fun, guys, and namarie
VardaValar1 has left the room.
TurgonjustTurgon: you too
TurgonjustTurgon: bleh, too late....
LuthienV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Yay, Luthien made it in :}
LuthienV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: heh, a new one for my list
ArPharazonV: been a long time
TurgonjustTurgon: Hey Luthien
Orodreth V: On turgon's note, I now know who has Orodreth@USEast. But I wouldn't call him a guild prospect, unfortunatly. :-\
Eonwe Valar: Don't bring him by then :}

Eonwe Valar: Web news:
Eonwe Valar: Arathorn's made updates to the ME mod Sets and Uniques pages, based on my vast treasuries :}
MJKeenan123: I dont even remember the last time I played wc3
Eonwe Valar: Between us, we've completed 14 of the 18 sets he has listed.
MJKeenan123: been so busy trying to finish up sol ro minis and getting fire flagged finally
ArPharazonV: well, if we're throwing in several news pieces of both gaming and web... I've got a nice one
Eonwe Valar: Thorondor made a web page, in Finnish, so hope you can read Finnish :}
Eonwe Valar: This is Web right now
ArPharazonV: mine is kinda web, kinda gaming
TurgonjustTurgon: nope.... too fishy.... Fins.... yup, definitely fishy
ArPharazonV: Fins is nice
ArPharazonV: if you can read it
TurgonjustTurgon: I know, being goofish :-)
ArPharazonV: I like the style of Scandinavian languages
Eonwe Valar: Eskon Sivusto - Schoolwork page including Tolkien. In Finnish. by Thorondor-V
TurgonjustTurgon: anyways, need to restart AIM, it´s kinda screwy
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, thought it'd come out as a link,.. oh well
TurgonjustTurgon has left the room.
ArPharazonV: it's almost Elvish...
TurgonjustTurgon has entered the room.
LuthienV: wb
ArPharazonV: ok, to repeat the only sentence made in Turgon's absence...
TurgonjustTurgon: thanks :-)
ArPharazonV: ArPharazonV: it's almost Elvish...
Eonwe Valar: Phar, go ahead and give your news here
ArPharazonV: ok
ArPharazonV: let's start with the link
ArPharazonV: it's a new section in the greatest wow database, official Blizz stuff
ArPharazonV: the entire history of Azeroth and it's universe, from the creation until the end of Frozen Throne, the final section is still under construction, will probably be about the time between TFT and WoW
Eonwe Valar: good story, btw :}
ArPharazonV: it's pretty cool if you want to learn more about the entire history of Azeroth, to better involve yourself in the setting of WoW
ArPharazonV: also, it lists the novels and e-books, as well as the games
ArPharazonV: good for collectors :-)
ArPharazonV: well, that's it, I guess...
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Phar :} Perhaps you could link to it from the WoW section of the Forum as well?
ArPharazonV: good idea, will do that
ArPharazonV: new thread?
Eonwe Valar: yeah :}
ArPharazonV: so we can comment on the story?
ArPharazonV: ok
Eonwe Valar: Any other Web news?
ArPharazonV: not from this source

Eonwe Valar: OK, on the Gaming News :}
Eonwe Valar: Ladder 2 is going well :}
Eonwe Valar: We've also got many of the new Ladder 2 banks up and running
Eonwe Valar: New TFT maps is available
ArPharazonV: Predators... pretty cool
Eonwe Valar: European WoW beta signups are closed,.. hope you guys got a chance to sign up :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Gaming news?
ArPharazonV: closed? already? I thought it would last 3 weeks?
TurgonjustTurgon: since when are they closed?
Eonwe Valar: I saw on the page it said closed
TurgonjustTurgon: they should last another full week
ArPharazonV: well, I'm glad I signed up the first day
TurgonjustTurgon: The sign-up pages for the World of Warcraft European Closed Beta Test are now live, since July 5th.
ArPharazonV: This will, however, eliminate part of the competion:-D
TurgonjustTurgon: The sign-up period will last for 3 weeks and all aspplications will receive equal consideration regardless of when they are submitted during the sign-up period.
Eonwe Valar: will check again to be sure, but I saw it say closed,.. might've meant signups for US,..
Eonwe Valar: Was looking at the WoW community site
Eonwe Valar: It says there Signups concluded, but as I said might be only US beta signups
TurgonjustTurgon: heh, obviously, they are wrong
TurgonjustTurgon: yep
TurgonjustTurgon: unfortunately they are wrong :-(
ArPharazonV: heh
TurgonjustTurgon: although this gives me the chance to sign up a couple more times :-D
ArPharazonV: well, turg, you've got another link to place in your section :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: blegh
Eonwe Valar: I wouldn't recommend that for everyone :} If you get caught you will be removed completely from the running
TurgonjustTurgon: shouldn't have made the section lol
Eonwe Valar: Any other Gaming news?
TurgonjustTurgon: Eonwe, I used different addresses and email addresses for each signup :-D
TurgonjustTurgon: I just hope they haven't got an IP-tracker on top of those signups
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien Topics whisper me :}
TurgonjustTurgon: then I'd be whacked
TurgonjustTurgon: should I mention my amazon is lvl 31 and paladin lvl 18?
TurgonjustTurgon: ladder of course
Eonwe Valar: Gaming would be a good place to mention, yes :}
MrMonkey2002Blah has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
MrMonkey2002Blah: howdy
Eonwe Valar: Can we help you?
ArPharazonV: it's Bombur
ArPharazonV: I invited him
Eonwe Valar: ah, didn't recognize the name
Bomburv has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: and now we have 2 bomburs ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Any Tolkien Topics?
Eonwe Valar: Going..
MrMonkey2002Blah has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Going...
ArPharazonV: well, we could compare the books and movies to any maps made for Blizz games
Orodreth V has left the room.
mordacil has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Don't know if everyone here's seen enough to make any comments Phar
Eonwe Valar: Welcome to Aerendir :}
ArPharazonV: I played a nice map a few days ago with 9 players, a full Fellowship, following the movies as closely as possible
mordacil: aiya
Orodreth V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: and Aiyata
Orodreth V: Anyone fill me in on what I missed? I'm supposed to be logging this. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aerendir, since you're new, would you like to say a few words?
ArPharazonV: Orodreth V has left the room.mordacil has entered the room.Eonwe Valar: Don't know if everyone here's seen enough to make any comments PharBomburv has left the room.
Orodreth V: Thanks.
mordacil: I haven't seen it
ArPharazonV: that's not it yet
ArPharazonV: Eonwe Valar: Welcome to Aerendir :}
ArPharazonV: ArPharazonV: I played a nice map a few days ago with 9 players, a full Fellowship, following the movies as closely as possiblemordacil: aiyaOrodreth V has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Few words = Hi, how you found us, games you play, that kind of thing :}
ArPharazonV: who was flyingunicorn again?
mordacil: hi, found you through akhoril, who dosen'tcome here much anymore. I have starcraft and bw
mordacil: i hear thats the minority here
Eonwe Valar: I think Akhoril might've been dropped in a previous sweep actually,.. hope he knows :}
ArPharazonV: I have starcraft and bw too
ArPharazonV: just don't play them from own initiative
Eonwe Valar: Actually, nm think I checked and found he hadn't been
Eonwe Valar: Indeed, SC/Bw is a small group0, but we do still have some who play it :}
Eonwe Valar: Welcome to the Guild Aerendir! :}
mordacil: what channel do they use now?
Eonwe Valar: Channel Valar is used by us all,.. just don't confused the person named Valar-Manwe for one of ours
Eonwe Valar: *confuse
ArPharazonV: there was another one, wasn't there?
ArPharazonV: not jus manwe?
ArPharazonV: *just
Eonwe Valar: or MelkorV
Eonwe Valar: Our Melkor plays DAoC, so not too likely we'd see him on bnet :}
ArPharazonV: just out of curiosity... how many Vala names are free?
Eonwe Valar: Masculine, there's Namo of those mentioned in the Sil; Makar, Amillo, and Salmar of those mentioend elswhere, porbably one or two more
TurgonjustTurgon: should be in there
mordacil has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: And for Feminine there's every one but Vard a:}
mordacil has entered the room.
TurgonjustTurgon: 4 are free
ArPharazonV: oooh.. still got time then ;-)
TurgonjustTurgon: ooooh.... didn't really notice Mandos is free :-)
Eonwe Valar: Promotions to Vala (or Maia for that matter) aren't made lightly, so you've got some time :}
TurgonjustTurgon: a LOT actually :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: look at me
TurgonjustTurgon: for example :-)
ArPharazonV: first thing: I've gotta get 6 hours a day free for several years, so I can help with the site and stuff....
TurgonjustTurgon: nearly 5 years member, still not Maia :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: was close about 9 months ago tho....
TurgonjustTurgon: and then my comp busted
ArPharazonV: right, but with the language you are known to use frequently, is it really a wonder ;-)
TurgonjustTurgon: :-X*beeeep**beeeeeepeeeerthebeeeeeep*:-X

Eonwe Valar: Ok, if there's no TOlkien topics, I can unleash one :}
Eonwe Valar: No need for that Turgon
TurgonjustTurgon: what language? *looks about innocently*
ArPharazonV: in another note, I already noticed Mandos being free...
ArPharazonV: a few months ago, I noticed that, and have set high ambitions, should the time come to release the phara-name
ArPharazonV: but that's far far away:-D
Eonwe Valar: Ambition is good so long as it doesn't blind one :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, here comes the Tolkien Topic :}
LuthienV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: ? She's still online, though
Eonwe Valar: All the Valar had a part in the creation of Ea. For some, Like Manwë, Ulmo, and Aulë, it is quite obvious what their part was
TurgonjustTurgon: not to forget Yavanna
ArPharazonV: and Varda
Eonwe Valar: For others, it is not quite so clear. What part in the creation of Arda did these other Valar/Valier have?
mordacil: like Tulkas?
ArPharazonV: creation of Ea, or Arda?
Eonwe Valar: I was giving examples, but I suppose we should list those who have an obvious part in the world
Eonwe Valar: pardon, was using them interchangeably for quite a while,.. it still stands Ea
LuthienV has entered the room.
mordacil: I think Ea is the universe and Arda is Earth
Eonwe Valar: Varda, Manwe, Aule, Ulmo, Yavanna, and Melkor all have obvious parts in the shaping. Any others?
Eonwe Valar: Hello?
ArPharazonV: hmm....
ArPharazonV: Mandos?
Eonwe Valar: ok, was hoping I wasn't split or dropped
TurgonjustTurgon: Lorien?
ArPharazonV: he took care of the afterlife or something?
Eonwe Valar: How did they help in the shaping of Ea?
ArPharazonV: Well, I can see Tulkas and Aule working together
ArPharazonV: he's good at building mountains and stuff like that
Eonwe Valar: That was after the shaping was done,.. what about in the actual shaping/creation?
Eonwe Valar: Ok, good, there's somethign for Tulkas :}
ArPharazonV: could Mandos, knowing a lot and foreseeing the future, be overseeing the whole operation? :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, that's Manwë's job, or Namo would be the Elder King :}
LuthienV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: well, he could go around Ea, preventing accidents before they happen
TurgonjustTurgon: or help raise to get things right
TurgonjustTurgon: -raise
TurgonjustTurgon: ya know, raise mountains for Melkor to smash em, so there is a lake that was intended? :-)
ArPharazonV: wasn't that mountain built up out of ice?
ArPharazonV: ergo: by Melkor?
Eonwe Valar: interesting :} The Sil though says nothing was shaped as the Valar planned, and that sounds like a plan :}
TurgonjustTurgon: well...
TurgonjustTurgon: look at it like tihs
TurgonjustTurgon: this*
TurgonjustTurgon: The valar shaped a mountain, where a lake was intended
TurgonjustTurgon: that would be in the context of the text
TurgonjustTurgon: and if Morgoth smashed it down
TurgonjustTurgon: and become a lake, it would no longer be the moutain that was intended on the spot a lake was intended
mordacil: turning evil intentions into good
ArPharazonV: he was just going with Eru's plan, without knowing it
Eonwe Valar: that sounds a bit devious for the Valar, thought, don't you think?
ArPharazonV: clever guy, Eru
TurgonjustTurgon: therefore the mountain the lake would not have shaped according to intentions, but according to Morgoth's stupidity :-)
Eonwe Valar: thought=though
TurgonjustTurgon: ack
TurgonjustTurgon: -the mountain
mordacil: that is like the theology of Christianity of how evil can be overcome
TurgonjustTurgon: really gotta learn to backspace more before getting ready to type the rest of my sentences :-)
mordacil: turn its own plans against it
TurgonjustTurgon: christianity has its weak spots, as does every religion
ArPharazonV: no matter how Melkor tried to go against Eru, he always played right into his hand
TurgonjustTurgon: and they all have their strong suits
TurgonjustTurgon: that's why Tolkien used elements of every religion into his books
ArPharazonV: he absorbed both monotheism and polytheism into one pantheon of gods
mordacil: he believed that many things had a common past
Eonwe Valar: Let's shy away from theological discussions where it does not pertain to the shaping of Ea
mordacil: such as stories
ArPharazonV: this does pertain to the shaping of EA
ArPharazonV: *Ea
ArPharazonV: for was it not Tolkien who created it in the first place?
mordacil: tolkiens thinking behind his idea is what we are talking about
ArPharazonV: he shaped Ea to that idea
ArPharazonV: and so the thought behind the idea is relevant to Ea's creation
mordacil: yes
Eonwe Valar: So how does the elements of religions TOlkien used tell us how the Valar, had a hand in shaping Ea?
ArPharazonV: well, his gods were based on other polyeistic pantheons, and their powers
ArPharazonV: so in a way, those gods shaped the Valar, and their powers
mordacil: we can compare and contrast hte other "real" religions and his storys mythology
ArPharazonV: thus telling us how the Valar were able to shape Ea :-)
Eonwe Valar: The Ainulindallë already tells us that though :} through the Music :}
mordacil: and mabey find connections(not necessarily allegories)
ArPharazonV: either way, we seem to be out of material

Eonwe Valar: Well, I guess we can kick it over into After-Meeting,. The Meeting Is adjourned, and those who want to stick around and discuss are welcome to
ArPharazonV: hmm...
ArPharazonV: the Valar needed Eru's powers to make the world round, right?
ArPharazonV: but if they did not have those powers all that time, how could they shape Ea in the first place?
Eonwe Valar: Eru made the World round after the Numenorean Fleet invaded Aman
ArPharazonV: thanks to yours truly, yes
Eonwe Valar: The Valar did not want to harm Eru's children, so they set down their guardianship temporarily and asked Eru to deal with them
Eonwe Valar: It's possible only Eru could thus shape the Arda fter it was formed, without rending it asunder and causing death to its inhabitants
mordacil: did you ever read about a dream of a wave covering the land that tolkien said he had several times until he wrote the storyof the fall of numenore?
ArPharazonV: yes, I did read about that
Eonwe Valar: The Valar did not make war against Melkor in the First Age because they did not want to create a tumult as great as the one that created when they fought him at the awakening of the Elves
ArPharazonV: he wanted to put the dream into writing, which had an unexpected sideeffect... he stopped having it
ArPharazonV: but if you read the Lost Road, you would see that dream recurring again
TurgonjustTurgon: rather they would have, then there wouldn't have been a war and many sorrows for the elves and the Dun-Edain
Eonwe Valar: They didn't know where the Atani were to awake; they did not want to destroy their resting place inadvertantly
mordacil: they backed (physically) out of middle earth affairs over the course of the mythology
mordacil: until you dont ever see them in the fourth age
ArPharazonV: until all that was left is their grace....
ArPharazonV: the grace of the valar
Eonwe Valar: I think there are agents of the Valar even in the Fourth Age, even if their presence was not obvious.
mordacil: ther is a story on the valarguild site about how eonwe is santa clause
mordacil: interesting story
ArPharazonV: cool, haven't seen it
Eonwe Valar: Thank you :}
TurgonjustTurgon: maybe those agents may have shifted from their course, as the Istari did, creating different "religions" all seeming to favor the Valar, but in different ways
ArPharazonV: perhaps the blue wizards are still out there
TurgonjustTurgon: doubt it
Eonwe Valar: There was one that stayed true, and I would wager there was at least one that stayed true of their agents in the fourth age as well
mordacil: one of the blue wizards?
Eonwe Valar: replying to Turgon's comment
TurgonjustTurgon: Olorin
ArPharazonV: Olorin's not here anymore, left early in the Fourth Age
ArPharazonV: perhaps Radagast is around
TurgonjustTurgon: but how would one know which one of these agents has stayed true to his/her path?
ArPharazonV: Radagast = Jan Wolkers
TurgonjustTurgon: that was in reply to Eonwe's comment in reply to mine
mordacil: I think it was said someware that there wer at least five wizards and that there could possibly be more
TurgonjustTurgon: that's a HUGE insult
ArPharazonV: heh
TurgonjustTurgon: quite correct Mordacil
Eonwe Valar: because the Valar did not want worship, rather pointing to Eru. The Faithful Numenoreans revered the Valar, not worhispping them, but did worship Eru
ArPharazonV: 5 were known in the west of middleearth
TurgonjustTurgon: Jan Wolkers has the hots for vivisection, Radagast would most likely skin him alive
ArPharazonV: :-)
mordacil: or turn him into a toad and fill the garden with snakes
TurgonjustTurgon: which is something that can be seen in present days 5!!! major religions
ArPharazonV: I thought there were only 5 major religions?
TurgonjustTurgon: rather turn him into a snake and make giant snake eating toads :-)
mordacil: which are those?
mordacil: 5 religions?
ArPharazonV: Christianity, Islam, Jew..ism?, Buddhism, Hinduism
TurgonjustTurgon: Hinduism, Boeddhism, Christianity, Jewism, Islam
Eonwe Valar: Buddhism is not a Monotheistic religion, unless you are worshipping Buddha
TurgonjustTurgon: would rather have Jewdom actually
Eonwe Valar: or perhaps yourself
TurgonjustTurgon: true
Eonwe Valar: It is Judaism
TurgonjustTurgon: but it is one of the 5
TurgonjustTurgon: ah well, sounds better anyways :-)
Eonwe Valar: but if it isn't pointing to Eru then it's not reflected :}
ArPharazonV: Hinduism is pointing to the Valar
mordacil: Christianity branched off of Judaism
Eonwe Valar: Neither is Hinduism
TurgonjustTurgon: might be a corruption by Sauron pointing to him and Morgoth
ArPharazonV: and Islam is a branched off combination of Judaism and Christianity
mordacil: 3 from 1
ArPharazonV: it started with Judaism
TurgonjustTurgon: doesn't matter where they came from though
ArPharazonV: the first major Monotheistic religion
ArPharazonV: well, after the Numenoreans, of course :-D
TurgonjustTurgon: it matters what present day major religions could have had in common with the "agents of the Valar" in the 4th age
Eonwe Valar: It is all speculation, of course :}
mordacil: I read part of some book about religion in middle earth
ArPharazonV: perhaps those agents WERE Shiva etc
ArPharazonV: that the gods and religion were based on real persons of great power
ArPharazonV: like in Stargate...
mordacil: o
mordacil: nm
ArPharazonV: hm?
mordacil: accidental
mordacil: Sg was only a few polythiestic religions
mordacil: like egypt and aztec
ArPharazonV: I meant it as an example
ArPharazonV: some religions could be based on real persons
ArPharazonV: and I don't mean the Jesus-story
Eonwe Valar: like Buddhism
ArPharazonV: or that
ArPharazonV: I meant when people, of which historical documentation is lost, were revered as gods, and came down as gods through history
Eonwe Valar: so you're saying the Gua-Ould are Maiar in parasitic slug-form? :}
mordacil: like people elevating a hero to god status after years of story telling
ArPharazonV: right, mordacil
ArPharazonV: both Jesus and Buddha were documented in history as living persons
mordacil: the oral tradition can do that
ArPharazonV: and therefore are not globally accepted as godlike beings
Eonwe Valar: depends on which parts of the globe you go to :}
ArPharazonV: when I mean globally, I mean the entire planet
Eonwe Valar: but then, right is not determined by what mere humans believe :}
ArPharazonV: they are not accepted as gods/fruits of rumor and imagination over the entire world
ArPharazonV: in the western parts they are known to be nothing more than human
ArPharazonV: so, not globally accepted as gods
Eonwe Valar: um, last I checked Chirstians belivesd Jesus Chirst was the Son of God
Eonwe Valar: *Christians
Eonwe Valar: *Christ
mordacil: can you give an example of what you mean?
ArPharazonV: the Son of God, not a god himself
mordacil: the greek gods or what?
ArPharazonV: still a human living in a certain time
Eonwe Valar: um, most if not all Christians also believe Jesus is God :}
ArPharazonV: Christians, yes
ArPharazonV: but Christians are not the only people on this planet
ArPharazonV: so, that is not globally accepted
mordacil: the trinity is a difficult philosophical concept
mordacil: what "god" is globally accepted?
Eonwe Valar: I didn't say that, but you were saying "in western parts" and many Christians make up the citiens of "The Western Parts"
Eonwe Valar: *citizens
ArPharazonV: in western parts also live many atheists
ArPharazonV: like myself
ArPharazonV: I do not believe in god
mordacil: what "god" is globally accepted?
Eonwe Valar: I didn't say they didn't but you were making a blankety statement of the western parts
Eonwe Valar: No god is globally accepted, Mordacil, and when one is I will worry
ArPharazonV: in the western parts, not by every single person in the western parts
ArPharazonV: but Greek gods are indeed an example of what I mean
mordacil: aI meant for arpharazon to give an example of what he is trying to describe
Eonwe Valar: agreed, so keep that in mind when you say he's not a "God" in the Western parts, because as I have said Christians accept him as God
ArPharazonV: they are accepted as gods, or results of rumor and fantasy
ArPharazonV: and not seen as actual people whose legends made them gods
mordacil: gods with anonymous histories that could possibly be based on heros of the distant past
ArPharazonV: I'm saying people in the western parts, not all, but many, do no see Jesus as a god
ArPharazonV: *not
ArPharazonV: not all, not most, but many
Eonwe Valar: I read what you said Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: But on to Greek gods :}
mordacil: You can avoid many arguments if you dont generalize.lets move on
Eonwe Valar: Hercule's was a Greek demigod,.. did he not become a full god and ascend to Mount Olypus?
Eonwe Valar: *Hercules, not apostrophe
mordacil: in the odyssey odesseus found him in hades
Eonwe Valar: hmm
mordacil: he had a mansion and partied all the time
Eonwe Valar: figures :}
ArPharazonV: Greek, Roman, Egyptian gods (unless you actually believe Stargate) are globally (I think) accepted as gods, imagination, instead of being considered based on real people
TurgonjustTurgon: Jesus is NOT GOD
Eonwe Valar: They're accepted as Mythology :}
TurgonjustTurgon: nor a
ArPharazonV: of course he isn't, Turgon
TurgonjustTurgon: and sorry about caps
mordacil: he is to us Christians
Eonwe Valar: Turgon, that's according to you, not according to Christians
ArPharazonV: he's just a crazy prophet who spread rumors about himself through his people
ArPharazonV: according to me
TurgonjustTurgon: not a sane christian sees Jesus as a God
Eonwe Valar: Pharazon, you're bordering on insult
Eonwe Valar: Turgon, so are you
ArPharazonV: I said according to me
TurgonjustTurgon: no, truly
mordacil: you dont understand the trinity
ArPharazonV: it's an opinion, not a statement of fact
mordacil: father son and spirit
TurgonjustTurgon: every Christian knows the basic facts of Christianity
mordacil: all one god
TurgonjustTurgon: 1) There can be only ONE God
ArPharazonV: I'm not a Christian
mordacil: 3 in1
ArPharazonV: I'm not even.. what's it called...
TurgonjustTurgon: so calling Jesus a God would be blasphemous
ArPharazonV: baptized?
TurgonjustTurgon: 2) Jesus is the son of God
mordacil: Jesus is god and the son of god
Eonwe Valar: In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
mordacil: yes
Eonwe Valar: The Word is Jesus
TurgonjustTurgon: Jesus is not God
mordacil: separate and together
ArPharazonV: Jesus is god, and the son of god... so god's his own father?
TurgonjustTurgon: no
mordacil: I told you. Philosophical concept
Eonwe Valar: If you have never read a bible with more than a half-interest you cannot expect to understand or know anything about Christianity
TurgonjustTurgon: It says in the Bible quite strictly that Jesus is His son, not himself
Eonwe Valar: Which part of the Bible, Turgon?
ArPharazonV: I've read pieces of the Bible, with interest... in the stories, that is
TurgonjustTurgon: I don't know exactly where, but I do recall that what I say is true
mordacil: God is not restrained by linear thought
ArPharazonV: oh my ... never mind
TurgonjustTurgon: however, I will inquire with someone who is more knowledgable about such things than I am
Eonwe Valar: I know where my quote came from Turgon :}
mordacil: he is three
mordacil: as one
Eonwe Valar: I would suggestreading it yourself Turgon :} I don't made judements about books I haven't read myself
ArPharazonV: we're getting very abstract here...
TurgonjustTurgon: I am....
mordacil: this is a good mind excercise
TurgonjustTurgon: just struggling with the whole concept
ArPharazonV: reminds me of the whole eternity-outside-time-discussion a while ago... became very abstract
TurgonjustTurgon: anyways, Eonwe, where did your quote come from? Genesis?
Eonwe Valar: John 1:1 was the Quote I gave
mordacil: I think Gods thinking is uncomprehensible in some areas to us
TurgonjustTurgon: John I, II or III?
Eonwe Valar: Also says in 1:3 - All things we re made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
ArPharazonV: Gods ways are unpredictable
mordacil: If ou believe in god and look at physics you can see that
Eonwe Valar: The Gospel John
ArPharazonV: oh wait, I got a bible in my browser bookmarks
TurgonjustTurgon: new testament, right?
Eonwe Valar: Yes :}
Eonwe Valar: one of the first 4 books :}
TurgonjustTurgon: and he's called John the Baptist?
Eonwe Valar: no
mordacil: the deciple of joh
Eonwe Valar: John the Baptist was beheaded by Herod the Tetrarch if my history serves me
mordacil: the baptist was the cousin of jesus
TurgonjustTurgon: that a different guy or simply a different name in a different language?
Eonwe Valar: A different guy
ArPharazonV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
ArPharazonV: yes, found it
TurgonjustTurgon: found it too
Eonwe Valar: It would be interesting to read the Bible in the original Greek and Hebrew to get the full understanding though,.. many words in those languages had multiple meanings, and readers at that time would understand it was implying all
Eonwe Valar: those things
Eonwe Valar: This I could use as a sequey into Tolkien if I so desired,.. :}
mordacil: I ve thought the same
TurgonjustTurgon: It doesn't quite exactly say that Jesus is the word
Eonwe Valar: *seguey
TurgonjustTurgon: Word*
TurgonjustTurgon: but
TurgonjustTurgon: contextually, one would have to say that this is meant
Eonwe Valar: It says the Word was made flesh later on
mordacil: I remember parts but not where they are from
ArPharazonV: There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
TurgonjustTurgon: that's why I'm saying contextually
TurgonjustTurgon: thus I apologize for my insult, which has affected myself as well
ArPharazonV: He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
ArPharazonV: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
TurgonjustTurgon: which Bible do you have Phar?
Eonwe Valar: apology accepted Turgon
ArPharazonV: well, as long as were apologising
ArPharazonV: I'm sorry I spoke out my cruel opinion where it could have been taken as an insult
ArPharazonV: I have not read the Bible, nor do I pretend I have
Eonwe Valar: Apology accepted as well, Pharazon
TurgonjustTurgon: apology accepted Pharazon
ArPharazonV: Having an opinion of knowledge and science, and being not that open to the philosophical aspect that is 'God', it was the only opinion I could have.... but I'm ignorant of any information relevant to the situation
ArPharazonV: but thank you for the acceptance
Orodreth V: I'll have to look over this discussion later..
Orodreth V: Looks veeeery interesting.
TurgonjustTurgon: hehehe :-)
mordacil: to me science is another way to worship God .seeing how the artist creats his art can give you a deeper respect to the artists ability
ArPharazonV: what religion are you part of, Orodreth?
Eonwe Valar: I have no problem discussing or even debating my beliefs, but the insult came when Turgon questioned a Christian's sanity, and Phar calling Jeus a crazy person,. don't want you to think the debate was the problem..
TurgonjustTurgon: well, there's at least one "religion" we all share in here :-)
ArPharazonV: Valarism!!
ArPharazonV: Tolkienism!!
TurgonjustTurgon: "Tolkienism"
ArPharazonV: whatever you'd want to call it
Eonwe Valar: Well, I don't worship the Valar, neither do I desire I be worshipped :}
TurgonjustTurgon: but
ArPharazonV: O:-)
mordacil: this is why I joined valarguild. to have great discussions like this
TurgonjustTurgon: as Eonwe so clearly put about the Numenoreans before
Eonwe Valar: Indeed :}
TurgonjustTurgon: we revere Tolkien, we don't worship him
Eonwe Valar: that's to Mordacil's comment
ArPharazonV: so... Eruism?
mordacil: probably would need a Quenya word
TurgonjustTurgon: nope, Tolkienism is simply a point of reveration of a man whose artistry far surpassed that of any in his time
Eonwe Valar: I like to believe the Valar Guild is mature and reasonable enough to handle these debates,.. fortunately I have not been proven wrong too often in this belief :}
mordacil: Eru=quenya ism=english grammar
TurgonjustTurgon: could hardly call it "The Oneism" could we? :-)
ArPharazonV: but anyway, Mordacil, the complexity of the universe and the scientific processes make it hard for me to believe one sentient being created it all, and is controlling it as we speak... that's why I'm an atheist
TurgonjustTurgon: who says God is sentient?
ArPharazonV: hmm... good comment
Eonwe Valar: Lol Phar, I would say the complexity makes it hard for me to believe it came into being all by itself :}
TurgonjustTurgon: maybe he's just a giant slug with some overgrown psychic abilities without having developed the rest of his brain?
TurgonjustTurgon: no insult btw
ArPharazonV: I could now have a revelation, that God does exist, as the driving power of nature who created the universe
TurgonjustTurgon: fact remains, we don't know
Eonwe Valar: Desn't sound a thing like my God :}
mordacil: its just when I jook at evolution(yes a chistian that believes in evolution) I see things created by incredible chance. like a junkyard with an earthquake every 1000 years and eventually shakes the peices into a working 747.
Eonwe Valar: *Doesn't
mordacil: I say the hand of god guided the chances of a gene here and there like a sculptor working on clay(or dust)
ArPharazonV: but, being that power, I doubt it could have sons and daughters, or angels to support it, or someway of communicating with us sentient beings
TurgonjustTurgon: heh, I'm just stating a possibility as I see it
TurgonjustTurgon: who knows
ArPharazonV: and thanks to Turgon I'm just reminded of the Kwama Queens from Morrowind
ArPharazonV: and of the Lich King
TurgonjustTurgon: it's possible that when we die and come before God, I can laugh with you and say "Told ya so":-)
TurgonjustTurgon: Ewwww Phara
ArPharazonV: if God is some sort of natural force instead of a sentient being, how could we 'come before' him/it?
TurgonjustTurgon: anyways
TurgonjustTurgon: What I believe at this point
TurgonjustTurgon: is that "some" higher power is behind the entire evolution thing, and I have decided to call that power God
Eonwe Valar: if that is the case Phar, then you are essentially worshipping the universe.
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ArPharazonV: well, in that case I am, worshipping the universe and the processes that are going on in it, but not a God as you would call it
mordacil: did you read my comment on evolution?
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arathorn :}
TurgonjustTurgon: what is a "natural force"?
TurgonjustTurgon: gravity?
ArathornValar: hmm... never joined the room ... internet's been bad lately
TurgonjustTurgon: a concentration of Oxygen?
ArPharazonV: well, in this case,
TurgonjustTurgon: fire?
Eonwe Valar: So the universe itself would've had to bring itself into existence
ArPharazonV: well, yes, in a way
Eonwe Valar: Sorry to hear that Arathorn
ArPharazonV: unless it was there all along
ArPharazonV: it expanded from a certain point, will collapse again, and expand anew
ArathornValar: anyway.. guess I'll read the transcript later... logged onto teh otehr PC earlier this aft but apparently it never took...
TurgonjustTurgon: and suddenly X came along and thought, hey let's create this little planet and use it as a playtoy.... :-)
Eonwe Valar: couldn't have been, because many scientists estimate an age :}
ArPharazonV: from the Big Bang, right?
TurgonjustTurgon: whoops, Q
Eonwe Valar: not all, some use a string theory now
ArPharazonV: which was the point in time at which our 'current' universe was 'created'
TurgonjustTurgon: a string theory?
mordacil: how do i get a transcript of this chat?
ArathornValar: well.. dropped in briefly.. take care all... off to finish thing up.. Namarie!
TurgonjustTurgon: isn't that a black hole inverting itself creating an implosion leading to it's entire mass being hurled into space?
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Eonwe Valar: from the little I understand of it, it's essentially that the universe is made of of strings, i.e. dimensions, that are so small or so large we cannot percieve them
ArPharazonV: I feel we're sinking back into the 'eternity outside time' discussion...
Eonwe Valar: click file, then save
ArPharazonV: if God, at some point, decided to create the universe and all in it, why did it not do so before?
TurgonjustTurgon: or go to our news page :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: He was thinking
mordacil: will it save any later than afer you save it?
ArPharazonV: nope, it won't mordacil
ArPharazonV: but you can save it multiple times ;-)
TurgonjustTurgon: can't have a Masterplan without thoroughly thinking it over, right?
Eonwe Valar: IF God is all there is, and God is Eternal/Eternity, then ther eis no time determinant
mordacil: does news page have the whole chat?
TurgonjustTurgon: usually several people will send in the chat
Eonwe Valar: Hence Time does not begin until Creation begins
mordacil: can you give a link to where it will be later?
ArPharazonV: and what was there before 'time'?
ArPharazonV: or before 'creation'?
Eonwe Valar: Eternity
TurgonjustTurgon: and either those combined, or one in its entirety creates the transcript
mordacil: can you give a link to where it will be later? the chat?
ArPharazonV: in the news section you can find it
Eonwe Valar: It will be on the News page
ArPharazonV: after a few days probably
TurgonjustTurgon: it will appear at around 6 or 7 PM EST tomorrow
TurgonjustTurgon: maybe a day or 2 later
ArPharazonV: what is 'Eternity', Eonwe?
TurgonjustTurgon: depends on how busy Varda is
ArPharazonV: and does not the term apply to an unlimited unit of 'time'?
TurgonjustTurgon: Pharazon, how do you see "time"?
Eonwe Valar: Here's a good philosophical phrasing for you: There is a point when you are not, but once you are, there will never again be a point when you are not.
mordacil: hate to leave but I have to go
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ArPharazonV: I see time as being one dimension (like length or width), which was always there
TurgonjustTurgon: holy cow...
ArPharazonV: and always will be
TurgonjustTurgon: that's a really indepth one
ArPharazonV: for everything falls into time, and therefore there cannot be anything outside it
ArPharazonV: nor before or after it
TurgonjustTurgon: so for you, time is a linear thing?
ArPharazonV: yes, it is
TurgonjustTurgon: is time travel possible according to you?
ArPharazonV: perhaps, yes, although every process and activity takes up time in one direction, so going backwards would be difficult if not impossible
Eonwe Valar: So time travel is dependent on relativity of time passing for the universe and for the individual
ArPharazonV: but concepts of 'time-folding' are lost to me
TurgonjustTurgon: going forwards is rather impossible
ArPharazonV: in that case, timetravel is impossible
TurgonjustTurgon: since going forwards would create an alternate time-line in which you would not exist
TurgonjustTurgon: going backwards would create the same loop
ArPharazonV: if you went forwards, there would be a point in which you disappeared
Eonwe Valar: no, it would create a disappearance then re-emergance of your personage
ArPharazonV: a period in which you would not be
ArPharazonV: and finally a point in which you would appear again
ArPharazonV: right, like Eonwe said
TurgonjustTurgon: if you went forwards, you would cease to exist in the timeline you move in from the moment you move forwards
TurgonjustTurgon: and you "reappear" in the time you go back to normal "time"
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Eonwe Valar: you would be, just in a different passing of time, were time travel possible
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ArPharazonV: you would basicly 'skip' a period of time
Eonwe Valar: Time is not merely a line, but the crossing/passing of several lines
ArPharazonV: I see it as one line
TurgonjustTurgon: correct Eonwe, but in the meantime, between disappearance and reappearance, you cease to exist
Eonwe Valar: then you do not see time in the individuals
ArPharazonV: in which you would 'blink' from one point to a point beyond
TurgonjustTurgon: I see time as a single dot
TurgonjustTurgon: the past, the present and the future
TurgonjustTurgon: each present moment, can be unlimitly small
ArPharazonV: the present is just one state the universe is in, at a single point in the one timeline
Eonwe Valar: you would exist, just not on the time plane of the universe
ArPharazonV: and past and future are made up of innumerable 'presents'
TurgonjustTurgon: thus in the end creating a point where humans can no longer percept the passing of time from past to present to future
TurgonjustTurgon: quite right Phara
TurgonjustTurgon: and each single present people make choices
TurgonjustTurgon: and each single present a new alternate timeline is created
ArPharazonV: actually, I don't believe in choices either... but that's another theory
ArPharazonV: and according to my theory, there can be no 'alternative' timelines or futures
TurgonjustTurgon: so you believe in one "fixed" destiny you can't do anything about
Eonwe Valar: hehe, so if there is no god, the universe created itself, and we can't decide what to do for ourselves, what is the point of living?
TurgonjustTurgon: you are just driven towards it, without consciously directing your life?
ArPharazonV: ah, and now we get to the true points of my theory
Eonwe Valar: that explains the one big line for time though
ArPharazonV: our minds, our consciousness, are chemically and biologically setup
TurgonjustTurgon: it would mean that free will is a void concept and that life is just one big giant joke
Eonwe Valar: sounds like he's been reading too much Wheel of Time only the Wheel got flattened :} No offense, just a small joke :}
ArPharazonV: everything in our minds, our 'choices', are physical events
ArPharazonV: and every physical event is based on countless factors, and not on variable possibilities
ArPharazonV: like the roll of a dice
TurgonjustTurgon: and what if one of those physical events would be altered by an unknown factor by let's say, 0.000000000000000000001%
ArPharazonV: the roll of the dice is based on the surface of the table, the force of the throw, etc... chance does not exist
ArPharazonV: unknown or not, Turgon, the factor remains a factor
ArPharazonV: and that factor is based on countless other factors
TurgonjustTurgon: but basically, you're saying, that according to human definitions, your life is useless?
ArPharazonV: we call it coincedence if we do not know all before-going factors
Eonwe Valar: not just his life Turgon,.. yours and mine as well :}
ArPharazonV: what are those human definitions, Turgon?
ArPharazonV: why do you think life has a use?
ArPharazonV: besides survival and reproduction?
Eonwe Valar: what are the point of survival and reproduction?
ArPharazonV: are there points to that?
ArPharazonV: our will to live is a physical concept
Eonwe Valar: apparently not, since my life is not determined by me :}
TurgonjustTurgon: one of many human definitions are: Living life happily and successfully, trying to achieve things that someone has set for himself by his own free will
ArPharazonV: your life is determined by you
TurgonjustTurgon: where's the separation line?
ArPharazonV: but you are nothing but a biological mass, caused by physical factors
Orodreth V: Agnostic, here. Politically i'm a Technological Anarchist. For the question asked a long while ago.
Eonwe Valar: it can't be if all these factors make my decisions for me,.. if I cannot act "out of character" then my life is not decided by me but by my surroundings
Orodreth V: /me fades to black
ArPharazonV: a person cannot be out of character, for everything that person does is in character, or he could not do it
TurgonjustTurgon: if everything was just a physical concept, religions would not exist Pharazon
Eonwe Valar: I in essence become nothing under this theory,.. all life, and existence itself does,.. except for the universe that managed to create itself despite the non-esitence of factors that could lead to it :}
TurgonjustTurgon: for religions are a thing of the mind purely, nothing physical about them
ArPharazonV: a human consciousness, the 'mind', is built up physically
Eonwe Valar: They're also a thing of Spirit Turgon
ArPharazonV: spirit is matter
TurgonjustTurgon: I know
TurgonjustTurgon: the Soul
ArPharazonV: Souls... do Souls even exist?
Eonwe Valar: Spirit is not matter :} The Spirit/ Soul, and its parts are the part of us that live on after death, that goes beyond what we call natural to supernatural and cannot be measured by material standards
TurgonjustTurgon: seems yours has not been working properly, maybe a visit to the workshop is in order? :-P
ArPharazonV: are not minds based on chemical processes, tricking us into believing we have a soul, a will, a consciousness?
TurgonjustTurgon: but Pharazon?
Eonwe Valar: emotions are based on chemical reactions
ArPharazonV: I do not believe in life after death either, though
Eonwe Valar: we choose to act on our impulses and instincts or we choose to go against them
TurgonjustTurgon: if everything was based on physical and chemical reactions, what would we need with computers, TV's, Literature?
ArPharazonV: I believe, that as the mind dies, the chemical processes die, and our thoughts just cease to be
TurgonjustTurgon: they do nothing to improve our basic instincts
Eonwe Valar: to not eat when you feel hungry , to not breath when you should inhale,.. these are things that we do because we can choose
TurgonjustTurgon: therefore, "Nature" would never allow such processes
ArPharazonV: and again, those choices are made chemically
Eonwe Valar: then they are not choices Phar
TurgonjustTurgon: no they're not Phar
Orodreth V: If I was not going back to reading a good book, I'd bet that you guys have argued the same point at least 3 times in this discussion. All of them. :-P
ArPharazonV: indeed, they are not
Eonwe Valar: Then again, why bother to exist?
Orodreth V: Then I'd go prove it, and make a bit of cash.
Orodreth V: Oh well.
TurgonjustTurgon: quite right Oro, we have argued the same point in different subjects :-)
Orodreth V: /me fades to black
ArPharazonV: every action, every decision, is based on internal or external trigges
ArPharazonV: *triggers
TurgonjustTurgon: and what cause the external triggers?
ArPharazonV: other triggers
ArPharazonV: other physical triggers
TurgonjustTurgon: being internal triggers from other people
TurgonjustTurgon: BUT
ArPharazonV: which could include the actions from other people, yes
ArPharazonV: and those actions are once more triggered by other triggers
Eonwe Valar: You realize, that if other factors affect everything, then everything that happens essentially must be traced back to a First Cause?
TurgonjustTurgon: if everything is based on internal AND external, those actions will fade, since they cannot live without an external trigger
ArPharazonV: RIGHT, Eonwe, you get it
TurgonjustTurgon: thus there has to be an initial external trigger
Eonwe Valar: so, share with me Phar, what is this First Cause?
TurgonjustTurgon: which would be, who else? God :-)
ArPharazonV: although a Cause, I do not know if I could call it that
Eonwe Valar: well, if time is Linear, then there can only be One Cause
ArPharazonV: as I said, I see time as a neverending line
TurgonjustTurgon: does it have a beginning?
TurgonjustTurgon: wait a sec
TurgonjustTurgon: do you say neverending LINE?
ArPharazonV: but I do not think all processes in the universe are made with a purpose, a cause
ArPharazonV: yes, a line
TurgonjustTurgon: A line has TWO stop parts
TurgonjustTurgon: a beginning and an end
ArPharazonV: doesn't have to
TurgonjustTurgon: ALWAYS
ArPharazonV: nope
Eonwe Valar: if tiem is a line with no beginning or end, then there is no point of origina, no Cause to create the following effects, and thus, no existence
TurgonjustTurgon: even if you can't see the end, it will exist
ArPharazonV: just like a surface does not need boundaries
TurgonjustTurgon: Phara, you know the appearance of a parabole, don't you?
ArPharazonV: time is a line with no beginning or end, so every state in time, a 'present' as you called it, is based on previous factors
TurgonjustTurgon: no beginning, no existance
TurgonjustTurgon: simple as that
ArPharazonV: why?
ArPharazonV: why does existance need a beginning?
Eonwe Valar: but there cannot be previous factors because there are no factors to cause those factors ad nauseum
ArPharazonV: yes, Eonwe, there are
TurgonjustTurgon: if what you say, everything has to have a start, then the start has to have a start
TurgonjustTurgon: etc
TurgonjustTurgon: Phara
ArPharazonV: there are factors that cause those previous factors, and these factors have factors themselves
TurgonjustTurgon: that can ONLY be if you are using a circlew
Eonwe Valar: you cannot have an effect without a cause first, and if there is no beginning there is no cause
TurgonjustTurgon: circle*
ArPharazonV: why a circle? that would mean every state of time would occur again and again and again
TurgonjustTurgon: only a circle is a neverending line without a beginning or an end
Eonwe Valar: even a circle doesn't solve the problem, as something needs to form the circle
TurgonjustTurgon: and a circle can be made infinitely small so that you would end in nothing more than a single dot
ArPharazonV: I do not see it as a circle
TurgonjustTurgon: ArPharazonV: there are factors that cause those previous factors, and these factors have factors themselves
TurgonjustTurgon: what cause the last factors?
Eonwe Valar: Ancient Native Americans held a cyclical timeline, believing these cycles to be about 52 or so years, then a new one began,.. but they had gods to account for the cycle
ArPharazonV: for in a circle, you would experience the SAME factors again and again
TurgonjustTurgon: not necessarily
Eonwe Valar: *or rather, some Native Americans did,.. don't want to be too general :}
ArPharazonV: or, it wouldn't be a circle, Turgon
TurgonjustTurgon: the circle would be dependant on free will
ArPharazonV: ... there is no free will
Eonwe Valar: You would, unless you belived people had choices that could change later factors
TurgonjustTurgon: thus your ideas cannot exist in this reality, Pharazon, sorry
ArPharazonV: why not, Turgon?
TurgonjustTurgon: you must have a start
ArPharazonV: no, you don't
TurgonjustTurgon: which you don't
ArPharazonV: indeed, you don't
Eonwe Valar: because you do not account for the factors that lead to present factors
ArPharazonV: you don't need a start
TurgonjustTurgon: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TurgonjustTurgon: that's a line
ArPharazonV: that's part of a line
Eonwe Valar: to have effects, you need a cause Phar,.. that's something Science has taught us :}
TurgonjustTurgon: that LINE is part of a bigger LINE
Eonwe Valar: it's also something we learn in Literature
ArPharazonV: and what if those causes are nothing but effects themselves?
TurgonjustTurgon: mathematical, a line ALWAYS has a beginning and an ending
Eonwe Valar: then what caused them Phar?
ArPharazonV: other causes, which are effects themselves
TurgonjustTurgon: if there is the slightest curve in a line, it would cease to be a line and become a curve
Eonwe Valar: You have to be able to acount for each cause, and when you cannot go back further, and have uncovered the original cause that has caused these other factors, then you have First Cause
ArPharazonV: you can always go back further
ArPharazonV: that's the whole point
TurgonjustTurgon: to WHERE?
ArPharazonV: for time is endless
TurgonjustTurgon: you have to have a starting point
ArPharazonV: .... no, no, no
TurgonjustTurgon: your entire idea is based on having to have a starting point
ArPharazonV: you don't have to have a starting point
Eonwe Valar: if you cannot find a first cause, your argument loses credibility
TurgonjustTurgon: and you don't even acknowledge that fundamental part of your ideology
ArPharazonV: why, eonwe? part of my theory, of my argument, is that every cause has it's own cause
Eonwe Valar: not trying to insult, just sharing from a scientific point of view,.. if you have no cause you have no case
ArPharazonV: every event has a cause, and is a cause
TurgonjustTurgon: Phara, what came before, the chicken or the egg?
ArPharazonV: the egg, of course
Eonwe Valar: you get to a point, Phar, where you either have to have a First Cause or you no longer have causes to the effects
TurgonjustTurgon: why?
TurgonjustTurgon: without the egg, no chicken
ArPharazonV: because reptiles had eggs to
ArPharazonV: *too
TurgonjustTurgon: and without the chicken, no egg
Eonwe Valar: so what came before the reptile?
ArPharazonV: and the first chicken came from the egg of another bird
Eonwe Valar: so the first chicken then began with another bird?
ArPharazonV: it's called evolution
TurgonjustTurgon: ok, what came before, the reptile or the egg?
ArPharazonV: well, seeing as fishes have eggs too, Turgon.. I think the answer to that is pretty clear
TurgonjustTurgon: now on a phylosophical plane Phar?
ArPharazonV: what's phylosophical about the chicken and the egg?
Eonwe Valar: Phar, even with the physical universe, you come to a point where you have to explain a First Cause
TurgonjustTurgon: What came first, the cause or the cause that caused the cause to cause it?
Eonwe Valar: you have to be able to trace the effects back to their causes and so on
ArPharazonV: the cause before that, of course
ArPharazonV: and so on! indeed, and so on1
Eonwe Valar: but what caused that cause?
ArPharazonV: another cause
TurgonjustTurgon: Pharazon
ArPharazonV: it's so friggin simple
TurgonjustTurgon: you fail to see your own concept in its entirety
ArPharazonV: here we go, let's summarize it
ArPharazonV: time is an endless line, in which every event is caused by another event
ArPharazonV: each event is physical, and there are no variables
Eonwe Valar: Phar, without a beginning there is no cause
ArPharazonV: therefore, there can be only one possibility for each process
TurgonjustTurgon: without a cause to cause a cause there cannot be a cause to cause it
ArPharazonV: therefore, there is no free will, no alternative timelines, and the law of murphy goes into effect
TurgonjustTurgon: now wait a second Phara
TurgonjustTurgon: ArPharazonV: each event is physical, and there are no variables
ArPharazonV: right, no variables, only constants
ArPharazonV: because each constant is based on previous constants
TurgonjustTurgon: ArPharazonV: the roll of the dice is based on the surface of the table, the force of the throw, etc... chance does not exist
ArPharazonV: right
TurgonjustTurgon: that sounds pretty much like variables to me?
ArPharazonV: and those factors are based on previous factors, and not variable
Eonwe Valar: variables can change
ArPharazonV: not variables
Eonwe Valar: i.e. the roll of the same set of dice can be different based on how each of these are carrying out
TurgonjustTurgon: what if the angle of the roll was changed by a miniscule percentage?
Eonwe Valar: if he throws on a different table, if he tosses them softer, etc.
ArPharazonV: right, Eonwe, that would mean a change in the factors leading to what would appear a similar situation to us
Eonwe Valar: those by mathematical definitions are variables, and the physical universe is ruled by math
TurgonjustTurgon: Pharazon, one of the key elements in both Math and Science is that something like an angle and the force of a throw ARE variables
ArPharazonV: well, perhaps we are using different definitions of variables
TurgonjustTurgon: you continue to nullify your own belief with every argument of your own you counter
Eonwe Valar: variables are ables that vary :}
Eonwe Valar: these are things that can vary
TurgonjustTurgon: and you're right about one thing
ArPharazonV: I see a variable as an event or situation not caused by factors that were already predestined, therefore there can be no variables
TurgonjustTurgon: those are physical aspects
ArPharazonV: there is no chance, no luck
TurgonjustTurgon: there isn't
ArPharazonV: no, there isn't
ArPharazonV: because every event is caused by other physical factors
TurgonjustTurgon: but what IF the roller of the dice would decide to roll them with a force of 0.endless 0's1 Newton softer?
TurgonjustTurgon: or harder
ArPharazonV: could be
TurgonjustTurgon: at the very moment he throws them
TurgonjustTurgon: would you say that is a matter of chemical reactions in his head causing a meltdown?
ArPharazonV: but the decision made at that point is made by chemical processes and triggers inside or outside the brain
ArPharazonV: right
Eonwe Valar: but what caused those triggers?
ArPharazonV: other triggers, of course
TurgonjustTurgon: and don't come up with some vague idea
TurgonjustTurgon: WHAT?
TurgonjustTurgon: and WHAT cause those?
ArPharazonV: other triggers, darn it
TurgonjustTurgon: too vague
ArPharazonV: and so on and so on
ArPharazonV: it's pretty simple to me
Eonwe Valar: if they cannot be measured by science or math, then they become supernaturla and thus there is more to existence than physical
ArPharazonV: there is indeed no more to existence than physical.. what's your point?
TurgonjustTurgon: Pharazon, what is the definition of a cause
ArPharazonV: a situation which triggers another event
TurgonjustTurgon: and a situation triggering another event is what you may call a "beginning" right?
TurgonjustTurgon: a beginning of a new situation, chains of events and causes?
ArPharazonV: no, that situation would be just another 'present' in the timeline, itself caused by another situation
Eonwe Valar: how about we use dictionary definitions forthe rest of this? :}
TurgonjustTurgon: but every "present" is the start of a new section of the infinity of that timeline, correct?
ArPharazonV: right
TurgonjustTurgon: and there you go faulty Pharazon
ArPharazonV: but each 'present' is also the adding up to the previous section of that timeline
ArPharazonV: *adding up of
TurgonjustTurgon: because in TIME there is no BEGINNING, thus not a single SECTION can begin
ArPharazonV: every present is both end and beginning at the same time
ArPharazonV: but time itself does not hold a beginning
TurgonjustTurgon: thus being a circle
ArPharazonV: no, not a circle
TurgonjustTurgon: ONLY a circle can end and begin at the same point
TurgonjustTurgon: a LINE can
TurgonjustTurgon: 't
ArPharazonV: just a point in the line
TurgonjustTurgon: that's the very first thing you learn in math
ArPharazonV: not a circle
ArPharazonV: just a point in the line
TurgonjustTurgon: magnify that poiny infinitely
TurgonjustTurgon: it will remain looking somewhat like this: -----
ArPharazonV: and you would still get a point looking infinitely small
TurgonjustTurgon: yes, but that point, however small, would be a LINE
ArPharazonV: no, just a point
TurgonjustTurgon: and thus would have the START and END of it at two DIFFERENT points
ArPharazonV: and there you are suggesting a point is made up of points
TurgonjustTurgon: a point in a line remains a section of that line, thus being a small portion of that line
TurgonjustTurgon: even if you cannot measure it with current technology
TurgonjustTurgon: you are basing your entire idea on what man can perceive
ArPharazonV: but the points I'm talking about, are so infinitely small that they cannot be made up of points
TurgonjustTurgon: not what is the reality of things
ArPharazonV: because those other points would be even smaller, which is clearly not possible
TurgonjustTurgon: a point that cannot be made up of points....
TurgonjustTurgon: so basically, you take a point so small that it is nonexistant
TurgonjustTurgon: thus the entire line would not exist
ArPharazonV: not nonexistant, just infinitely small
TurgonjustTurgon: but when they cannot be points when they are is simply stating that 1+1= 3
ArPharazonV: a point is a point
TurgonjustTurgon: and such a faulty reasoning in math says that it cannot exist
TurgonjustTurgon: ArPharazonV: but the points I'm talking about, are so infinitely small that they cannot be made up of points
ArPharazonV: but a point cannot be built up out of points
TurgonjustTurgon: it can if it comes from a line
ArPharazonV: because the 'buildingpoints' would be smaller than the original point
ArPharazonV: and the original point is already infinitely small
TurgonjustTurgon: you can infinitely small it up, and every time you do that, I can infinitely magnify it
TurgonjustTurgon: WHOA
TurgonjustTurgon: you're saying ORIGINAL point
ArPharazonV: jeez...
TurgonjustTurgon: so somewhere on that line, there has to be a START
ArPharazonV: I'm using that term for a reason
TurgonjustTurgon: since making ONE part of the line so small it has an origin, so does the line have to have an origin
ArPharazonV: I'm saying original point in it's relation with the other points, which do not exist
TurgonjustTurgon: then there cannot be an original point and I can keep magnifying to nullify your reasoning
ArPharazonV: ok, let's replace the term original point with
ArPharazonV: the point which would be built up out of the 'buildingpoints'
TurgonjustTurgon: buildingpoints are the same
TurgonjustTurgon: you have to start with something to build with
ArPharazonV: buildingpoints as in building a point cannot exist
Orodreth V: Pure curiosity here: How did Religion turn into debunking established math?
TurgonjustTurgon: and so you use the term original once again
TurgonjustTurgon: ideology
ArPharazonV: because any point in the timeline is so infinitely small, it cannot be built out of other materials
TurgonjustTurgon: Pharazon, you are constantly, and I mean really constantly opposing your own arguments, nullifying them
ArPharazonV: no I'm not
TurgonjustTurgon: yes you are
ArPharazonV: I just used one term when I should have used a more suitable one
TurgonjustTurgon: ArPharazonV: buildingpoints as in building a point cannot exist
ArPharazonV: right
TurgonjustTurgon: just look at that
ArPharazonV: that's a right statement, you know
Orodreth V: Not! Too! Not! Too! MOMMY BILLYS BEING MEAN!
Eonwe Valar: Orodreth, no caps :}
Orodreth V: Emphasis. :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: BUILDING POINTS as in BUILDING POINTS cannot exist
TurgonjustTurgon: just exaggerating on the spaces there, but that's what it says
ArPharazonV: building-points, as in points that are building up other points, cannot exist
ArPharazonV: that is what the sentence says
TurgonjustTurgon: thus you have NO start
ArPharazonV: right
Orodreth V: Not to self: Sematics are annoying.
TurgonjustTurgon: and again I can say I can magnify unlimited to prove you wrong
ArPharazonV: no, because a point is infinitely small, no magnification can bring change to it's size
ArPharazonV: *its
Eonwe Valar: Pharazon, to put it short, you cannot have causes into infinity past because doing that, you end up with no cause to the followign effects
TurgonjustTurgon: you have no startingpoint in which you can prove it has 2 different points stuck to 2 opposite sides of a line
Eonwe Valar: You can, however, have a first cause, a beginning, from which all effects later become causes
ArPharazonV: and what causes the first cause, then?
TurgonjustTurgon: Pharazon, because I magnify infinitely, it doesn't matter how small you make it, it will remain the same size to me
TurgonjustTurgon: a line that is part of a bigger line
ArPharazonV: so, what you are suggesting, Turgon, is that you cannot grasp the theory in the way that I do?
Eonwe Valar: That becomes then a matter of personal belief and soul-searching, Phar.
TurgonjustTurgon: Pharazon, I fully comprehend the theory you are describing, I am saying that you however cannot see beyond the boundaries that you have put around your theory to see the whole part of the original theory
ArPharazonV: al you are doing, Turgon, is attacking the forms I use to explain my theory, misinterpreting them when possible, without dismantling it
ArPharazonV: *all
Eonwe Valar: But it's been proven in too many fields of study that a an effect must have a cause, that an action creates an equal reactions, etc.
ArPharazonV: indeed, Eonwe
TurgonjustTurgon: I need not do more than weaken your arguments to let you use them against yourself
TurgonjustTurgon: all I need to do is prove you wrong
TurgonjustTurgon: nothing more
TurgonjustTurgon: you however, have to provide solid arguments to prove you right
ArPharazonV: and as every cause, Eonwe, is an effect in itself, that too must have a cause
Eonwe Valar: Therefore, Phar, you cannot have an infinite number of causes in the past, they must, by necessity, by finite, if immeasureable, and come to a beginning
ArPharazonV: you say each effect needs a cause
ArPharazonV: I say every cause is an effect
ArPharazonV: therefore, every cause needs a cause
TurgonjustTurgon: the very definition of a cause is that it's the beginning of something
Eonwe Valar: Every cause is not an effect Phar
Eonwe Valar: There is at least one cause that have no cause, hence the term used by Scientists: First Cause.
TurgonjustTurgon: everything after that first cause is not caused by it, but an offspring of it, and thereby its offspring will cause new events to happen
ArPharazonV: well, then my theory isn't used much by other scientists, as I do not believe the First Cause has no cause itself
TurgonjustTurgon: anyways
Eonwe Valar: A cause is not necessary for a cause.
TurgonjustTurgon: I think we could debate this theory forever
ArPharazonV: I believe every cause is an effect, therefore every cause must have a cause
TurgonjustTurgon: let the logs note that I retreat myself from a useless conversation
Eonwe Valar: Duly noted
TurgonjustTurgon: as Pharazon believes everything is useless in itself, thus debating his own useless theory is in fact, quite useless
ArPharazonV: right, I'm clearly not able to put my theory into words which are suitable for it
Eonwe Valar: I would say hypothesis, Phar
ArPharazonV: and for the record: this conversation was meant to happen ;-)
Eonwe Valar: And for the record: I had several chances to pull out, I chose not to :}
ArPharazonV: it may be useless, but destined... like everything else... ok, let's leave it here
TurgonjustTurgon: and for the record, I say we all chose to hold this debate :-)
ArPharazonV: I just want to say my theory, if right, means Murphy's Law is right too
ArPharazonV: which great emphasis on if
ArPharazonV: *with
Eonwe Valar: Murphy's law is right whether or not your Hypothesis is true Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: And for the Record:
Eonwe Valar: A Theory has been tested repeatably to prove its validity,.. if it cannot be repated, or observed, it cannot be called a Theory
ArPharazonV: no, that's what we call a Law
Eonwe Valar: A Hypothesis is a thought of how things may be, but has not been given the (hopefully) rigourous testing of a Theory
Eonwe Valar: Who's "we" Phar?
TurgonjustTurgon: good question :")
TurgonjustTurgon: :-)*
ArPharazonV: me and everyone who has learned the same information on school as me in that respect
TurgonjustTurgon: you guys know what?
ArPharazonV: let's not get into the definitions of Theory and Hypothesis
ArPharazonV: let's just call it my Guess
ArPharazonV: my Idea
ArPharazonV: my Thoughts
ArPharazonV: my Belief
TurgonjustTurgon: I pity the people who are going to read this transcript to its end, they will have a hard time figuring what has been said lol :-)
Eonwe Valar: "Hypothesis:
TurgonjustTurgon: Eonwe
TurgonjustTurgon: let's stop here
ArPharazonV: indeed
TurgonjustTurgon: we don't need to go any further
TurgonjustTurgon: it's his belief, his opinion
TurgonjustTurgon: and even though we may believe it to be wrong
ArPharazonV: Opinion! Good word!
TurgonjustTurgon: he is entitled to it
TurgonjustTurgon: we have been at it long enough to try and persuade him to see what we see
Eonwe Valar: An unproved or unverified assumption that can either be used or accepted as probable in the light of established facts"
ArPharazonV: oh, btw, did you know the ! is back in the forums?
TurgonjustTurgon: the ! ?
ArPharazonV: yes, the !
TurgonjustTurgon: I don't get it lol
ArPharazonV: it was not allowed for as long as I can remember, filtered out
TurgonjustTurgon: lol
ArPharazonV: every ! was replaced by a *
Eonwe Valar: justtrying to get some firm definitions; seems like all the way through we were redefining words
TurgonjustTurgon: why not filter out every 2nd and rising !'s ?
ArPharazonV: too hard to do, I think...
ArPharazonV: you'd just do ! ! ! instead of !!!
TurgonjustTurgon: hmph
Eonwe Valar: I say next time we all bring a dictionary :}
TurgonjustTurgon: I don't have one :-(
ArPharazonV: and let's face it, ! ! ! is much more annoying
TurgonjustTurgon: then filter out spaces between !´s as well
Eonwe Valar: there has to be one online somewhere,.. but anyway,.. I'll save here and call it an end to aftermeeting :}
TurgonjustTurgon: having your own PHP MB, it should be doable
TurgonjustTurgon: right there Eonwe
ArPharazonV: let's quit it all with the last sentence of the Bible....
ArPharazonV: Rev 22:21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.
Eonwe Valar: Amen Reverand Pharazon :}
TurgonjustTurgon: hmmmmz
ArPharazonV: meh, Revelations just my favorite section ;-)
TurgonjustTurgon: mine says: The Lord Jesus be merciful to all
ArPharazonV: different version, Turgon?
TurgonjustTurgon: baptist version
TurgonjustTurgon: on my lap
ArPharazonV: I've got King James Version
Eonwe Valar: Phar must have King James Version, same as mine
ArPharazonV: right
Eonwe Valar: I recommend King James version :}
ArPharazonV: actually, the site offers multiple versions
ArPharazonV: from KJV to Greek
TurgonjustTurgon: well, it could be the same if you look at it with your eyes half closed :-)
ArPharazonV: the last page in greek :-)
Eonwe Valar: Maybe I'll take a class in Greek,.. :}
ArPharazonV: And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
ArPharazonV: And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.
ArPharazonV: And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
TurgonjustTurgon: hmmmm
TurgonjustTurgon: I can´t find where the versions are....
ArPharazonV: from my link you mean?
ArPharazonV: just go the main page, you'll find the same thing in KJV, with a list of versions
TurgonjustTurgon: anywhere on that site
ArPharazonV: alll the way to the top
ArPharazonV: Read / Print Other Versions:
TurgonjustTurgon: gimme the main link
ArPharazonV: ah... the four horsemen...
TurgonjustTurgon: still can´t find it
ArPharazonV: ah, yes, not on this page
ArPharazonV: just select a portion of the Bible, and click on the appropriate buttons to find the section
Eonwe Valar: afk for a few moments
ArPharazonV: at the top of the page, you'll be able to find the list
ArPharazonV: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
ArPharazonV: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
ArPharazonV: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
ArPharazonV: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
ArPharazonV: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
ArPharazonV: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
TurgonjustTurgon: bah
TurgonjustTurgon: it´s not even in Latin
ArPharazonV: heh
TurgonjustTurgon: bad
TurgonjustTurgon: bad
TurgonjustTurgon: bad
FINARFIN010 has entered the room.
TurgonjustTurgon: anyways, need to restart my com
TurgonjustTurgon: comp(
ArPharazonV: I don't konw.. I kinda like the Apocalypse story...
TurgonjustTurgon: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: for some reason I hope I'll live to witness it
TurgonjustTurgon has left the room.
ArPharazonV: are you actually Finarfin of this guild?
FINARFIN010: yes
ArPharazonV: ok, put you in friendslist in that case
FINARFIN010: aka Erestor
ArPharazonV: oh, of course, now i remember
ArPharazonV: right
FINARFIN010: :-)
ArPharazonV: you religious?
FINARFIN010: hmmm.... good question..
: why?
: do you believe in God?
ArPharazonV: and in the Bible? well, not that it exists, but...
ArPharazonV: I'm reading a part of it here, Revelations
FINARFIN010: you know at my age you would have thought that i would have figgured thi out by now.. but i just do not know .
has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: I think it's a great part, but were I commenting as such on it in front of somebody religious, they might take it as an offense
TurgonjustTurgon: silent all of a sudden :-)
ArPharazonV: I wonder what the actual end of humanity will be like....
FINARFIN010: i think the bible was a good book (no pun intended) when it was writen.. i think it holds some great values to be learned... i think that it needs some updating as well
: but the prophecy's? the stories about Jezus and his supernatural accomplishments? That sort of thing?
TurgonjustTurgon: I rather think that humanities Moral ethics should be updated
ArPharazonV: *prophecies
FINARFIN010: well do you believe in just the bible's prophecy's or just in prophecy's in general?
: none, myself.. I believe all is predestined, but there is no way to predict anything, as doing so would take so much time that the event would already have happened by the time you could make the prophecy
ArPharazonV: but for my question, I meant the ones in the Bible
FINARFIN010: if you believe all is predestined then you cannot believe in free will.
: right, and that's what we've been discussing for the last few hours....
FINARFIN010: not again!!!
: just my theory, though
FINARFIN010: what is tyou theory?
: nope, I will not involve in this discussion once again, other than saying, Phar keep yer yap about this :-)
ArPharazonV: don't worry, I'll make it short
FINARFIN010: :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: I'll pretend not to see this :-)
FINARFIN010: hehehe
: in short, in relevance to the 'free will', I believe the human mind is chemical and biological, and every action we do/make is caused by physical triggers, therefore there are no choices or free will. 'Nuff said.
Orodreth V:!
Orodreth V: /me faints
FINARFIN010: fans orodreth with feathers
: yeah, I could go on into other parts of my theory, but that's been done today, and for now redundant
FINARFIN010: i see
: but, now that that's done
ArPharazonV: do you believe in the prophecies of 'Revelations'?
FINARFIN010: hmmm...
: no
: good, in that case I can say I love the stories
ArPharazonV: about the seals, the horsemen, etc
FINARFIN010: :-)
ArPharazonV: stars falling to earth and such
ArPharazonV: let's just say, if it happens, I want to be there ;-)
FINARFIN010: you may not like a star falling on top of you though.
: the blood-covered moon also sounds fantastic
ArPharazonV: and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
FINARFIN010: that may be a netaphor
: of course it is
ArPharazonV: but if it literally happens, I want to be there
FINARFIN010: what... on the moon?
: no, watching from Earth...
Eonwe Valar: back
: aiyata
Eonwe Valar: thanks, and heya Finarfin
FINARFIN010: Heya Lady.
Eonwe Valar
: Lady?
ArPharazonV: confused with Eowyn?
FINARFIN010: oops need to read more careful
: y
: (blush)
has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya..?
TurgonjustTurgon: Welcome :-)
staind32185: hello
: aiya?
: is this... the twin?
TurgonjustTurgon: definitely not Phara
TurgonjustTurgon: insulting!
staind32185: who me?
Eonwe Valar
: no
ArPharazonV: ok
Eonwe Valar: no
FINARFIN010: well i am going to play a bit
: just thought you knew him or something
ArPharazonV: and I'm lagging
Eonwe Valar: hmm delay in my refreshing apparently
FINARFIN010: me too
: she knows me alright :-)
Eonwe Valar: hf Finarfin
staind32185: yes i used to be a member of the guild
Eonwe Valar
: Be glad you didn't come in 20 minutes earlier :}
TurgonjustTurgon: hf Finarfin :-)
FINARFIN010: see you good people later :-)
: Namaire
: Namarie
FINARFIN010 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: ok, lag gone
TurgonjustTurgon: she was Amarie before the current one, about.... what's it.... 1.5 years ago?
staind32185: 1.5-2 yes
Eonwe Valar
: I'll take a look real quick
staind32185: but turgon invited me so i could visit
: but, I think I've established for myself a favorite chapter of the Bible... and let's quit the whole religious subject with that
Eonwe Valar: enjoy Phar :}
ArPharazonV: Rev 6... not that big
Eonwe Valar: found it,.. sept 25th 2002?
TurgonjustTurgon: quite about right
staind32185: yes that sounds about right
Eonwe Valar
: know Azog?
staind32185: mhm
: THAT was the dude's name
staind32185: i used to anyway
: I seriously doubt I'll ever forget my join-date... 4th of October
TurgonjustTurgon: we removed Azog from the Guild, right?
Eonwe Valar: Or ex Azog anyway,.. seemes he was dropped in the last sweep or left
staind32185: i think he dropped himself
: inactivity
Eonwe Valar
: might want to turn off the higlight,.. makes it hard to read your text
ArPharazonV: stop, drop, and roll
ArPharazonV: meh, I like it
ArPharazonV: contrast against Turgon
staind32185: better?
Eonwe Valar
: yes, thanks
staind32185: welcome
Eonwe Valar
: So Turgon tells me you're interested in rejoining?
staind32185: yes
: just one minor detail... could you turn of the bold?
: i am thinkgin about it
: sure
: hehehe :-)
TurgonjustTurgon: highly demanding people in here :-)
staind32185: lol it is ok
ArPharazonV: or not, your choice... no pressure here...
Eonwe Valar: and turn your text horizontally, and make it Old English, 10 pt font,.. j/k :}
TurgonjustTurgon: hope you didn't forget that from last you came in honey :-)
staind32185: idk last time iw as in a meeting it was on b-ney
Eonwe Valar: still thinking about rejoining?
TurgonjustTurgon: erm.... Phara, I don't want to start the discussion again, but I thought choice did not exist....?
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: now, if Eonwe and Turgon go to black font, and Turgon rejoins to lose the pink name.... all is perfect ;-)
staind32185: yes i havent decided yet i still feel terrible about last time
TurgonjustTurgon: my name is red
ArPharazonV: right, Turgon, but she doesn't know it yet
TurgonjustTurgon: Eonwe's pink
Eonwe Valar: Chemical reactions in my brain telling me to stay how I am :}
ArPharazonV: you're getting the hang of it :-D
TurgonjustTurgon: Eonwe, ever had a deja-vu of a deja-vu?
ArPharazonV: ok, Turgon, I get the point... drop the subtletey
Eonwe Valar: no, just a deja-vu as far as I know :}
ArPharazonV: *subtlety
TurgonjustTurgon: no, this is something entirely different Phar
Eonwe Valar: Haven't decided if you feel terrible?
TurgonjustTurgon: I keep getting these deja-vus of deja-vus
staind32185: i just feel really bad
Eonwe Valar: hehe, really bad, but not terrible :}
staind32185: and that is greatly effecting my decision to rejoin
staind32185: terrible sounds right too
ArPharazonV: perhaps... you were right, Turgon! This is a circle! You're experiencing this event over and over again! Ok, shutting up...
TurgonjustTurgon: As I explained to you before Megs, don't worry about it, the transgression was forgiven and forgotten
TurgonjustTurgon: actually, Pharazon, I am, but something keeps changing
staind32185: an as i told you though i still can't forget it much less not feel bad
TurgonjustTurgon: ok, shutting up as well lol
TurgonjustTurgon: yes I know
TurgonjustTurgon: maybe you should hear it from someone else
TurgonjustTurgon: like Eonwe :-)
staind32185: lol
Eonwe Valar: Forgotten so well I only vaguely remember it :}
staind32185: lol idk
ArPharazonV: I know I should not ask this, but I'm very curious
ArPharazonV: what happened?
TurgonjustTurgon: he's co-chair now, so he's quite a big authority on the forgive and forget policy :-)
Eonwe Valar: Phar, read the news Page :}
ArPharazonV: from what day?
Eonwe Valar: Dig in the Archives :}
TurgonjustTurgon: of around december 2002
Eonwe Valar: Don't remember :}
Orodreth V: 141 pages left.
Orodreth V: It's too hot.
ArPharazonV: oh, I see...
Orodreth V: Eonwe, can you put in a word to Ulmo to try and get some rain over here?
Eonwe Valar: Well, I'm going to dig in my Council mail later to see the exact details, but if I recall enough, it may require a quick pass through Council
staind32185: ya...
Eonwe Valar: I'll do my best but if you got on EQ you might get quicker results :}
Orodreth V: Better chance of me getting Planetscape then EQ. :-P
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Orodreth V: MEO is the one I really want, though.
Orodreth V: Perhaps I'll have a..*gasp*..job!
Orodreth V: Naw.
ArPharazonV: hmm... perhaps I should get a job too... don't want to go bankrupt months after buying wow ;-)
staind32185: you can have my job
ArPharazonV: where do you work?
staind32185: in a photo lab
staind32185: i devlope peoples pisctures and sell cameras all day
Eonwe Valar: It might help if you sent an e-mail to me or Varda that we can forward to the Council telling why you'd like to rejoin. Be sure you've decided you want to rejoin though.
staind32185: pictures*
staind32185: i know
ArPharazonV: I meant geographical location, actually :-)
staind32185: i will decide
staind32185: oh lol new tork
Eonwe Valar: OK, just trying to help you with what I know :}
staind32185: and i will decide eventully
ArPharazonV: ah, too far... I'm in Europe
staind32185: i just still feel bad
staind32185: lol thats nothign jsut fly over everyday
ArPharazonV: and how exactly would I get a profit from that? ;-)
staind32185: i am not sure
Eonwe Valar: you don't you're workign so she can get paid :}
staind32185: but i am do for another raise in a month or so
ArPharazonV: well, forget it... I'm going for a job in NL :-)
ArPharazonV: :-X ?
staind32185: ok lol
TurgonjustTurgon: Phara, NYS mind you
TurgonjustTurgon: not NYC
ArPharazonV: same thing... overseas
staind32185: yes the joys of upstae ny
staind32185: don't ever move up here
staind32185: it is evil lol
Eonwe Valar: Well, I will take this moment to step out :} Take care all :} staind, I'm sure our paths will cross again :}
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: btw, who's saving this?
Eonwe Valar: I've got it saved up until I declared after-meeting over
Eonwe Valar: did we want all this too?
ArPharazonV: I could save, and send everything from pre-meeting until now
ArPharazonV: when was that?
staind32185: mostly likely Namarie Ewonwe
Eonwe Valar: about 30 minutes ago
ArPharazonV: before or after the bible, and revelations?
Eonwe Valar: a little before
Eonwe Valar: go ahead and send it all though:}
ArPharazonV: before or after my futile attempt to bring over my theory?
Eonwe Valar: after that :} That's the main topic of After-meeting :}
ArPharazonV: ok, I'll just send it all in... just a text file :-)
Eonwe Valar: OK :}
Eonwe Valar: Off I go :}
ArPharazonV: to Varda, right?
Eonwe Valar: yes :}
TurgonjustTurgon: already sent it
ArPharazonV: Namarie then
TurgonjustTurgon: saved up until I restarted my comp
staind32185: Namarie
Eonwe Valar: ok take care all :}
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: what games do you play, staind? (with lack of a better name to call you with)
staind32185: umm my real name is Meghan cuz that sounds better at least
staind32185: and i play d1 and d2
ArPharazonV: ic
staind32185: but i just got my internet and my comp back so i ahve to reintall both
ArPharazonV: planning on playing another game in the future? MEO? WoW?
ArPharazonV: Guildwars?
staind32185: i am not sure
Orodreth V: Oh, he left.
Orodreth V: I have everything.
ArPharazonV: from where?
Orodreth V: Including about a dozen meeting prior to this.
staind32185: i actully am just trying to pay rent and my phone bill so i can't aford games
ArPharazonV: ah, that's too bad...
staind32185: it works though i have enough money to live lol
ArPharazonV: but, Orodreth, I recall you being quite late in the prior meetings? ;-)
staind32185: which i guess is important
ArPharazonV: yeah, it is
Orodreth V: Yea.
ArPharazonV: *can't believe I'm saying this* more important than gaming
Orodreth V: I've missed/been late to probally 15.
ArPharazonV: :-D
staind32185: yeah i am not reallt kosher with the idea of living on the street
Orodreth V: But my logs start feb 22.
Orodreth V: That's..
ArPharazonV: 15?
Orodreth V: Hmm.
ArPharazonV: neh
Orodreth V: Perhaps I've missed less then I thought.
ArPharazonV: 5 monts...
ArPharazonV: *ths
Orodreth V: At any rate, I've got slightly over a meg of text from the meetings.
ArPharazonV: 20+ meetings?
Orodreth V: Or anything that was said in here while I was here.
TurgonjustTurgon: dec 22 2002 phar
ArPharazonV: yes, I found it already
ArPharazonV: hence my comment earlier
ArPharazonV: ArPharazonV: oh, I see...
ArPharazonV: hmm... the meeting seems to have perished...
Orodreth V: Ya'll keep distracting me.
Orodreth V: I've got barely 10 pages so far.
ArPharazonV: 'Sanka, are you dead? Ya, man!'
Orodreth V: Big pages, yes, but still.
ArPharazonV: 'Guess the song's over then.' 'Guess so.' 'Ok, back to work'
ArPharazonV: Well, goodbye guys, I'm saving and sending.... Namarie
staind32185: Namarie
ArPharazonV: unless anybody still desires to have a conversation?
staind32185: sorry i am kinda here
staind32185: thinking and multitasking
ArPharazonV: ok, above references: 1 is a movie, 1 is a game... up to you to identify them ;-)
ArPharazonV: well, it seems that is a task to all you who are reading the transcript! If you can identify them, good job for you!
staind32185: :-\
ArPharazonV: These are the references:
ArPharazonV: 'Sanka, are you dead? Ya, man!' is from a movie, try if you can identify the title
ArPharazonV: 'Guess the song's over then.' 'Guess so.' 'Ok, back to work' is from a game, again, try to identify the title
ArPharazonV: unless our candidate, Meghan, wants to give it a shot?
staind32185: actully i mudt take my leave my other half is home and he wants to take me out for pizza
ArPharazonV: Well, namarie in that case
staind32185: sorry
staind32185: it was nice meeting/seeing you all again namarie
ArPharazonV: and no, Turgon, I already gave you the answers... you can't answer them now ;-)
ArPharazonV: namarie
ArPharazonV: The transcript ends here.
ArPharazonV: The end.
staind32185 has left the room.