Valar Guild

August 1, 2004 Meeting

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
5pm EST (GMT-5)

News page 

Transcript from Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Meeting Begins
    Tolkien Encyclopedia: 1 new article "Elmo"
    News page now has quotes at the top.
    D2X  Ladder playing and banking
    BZFlag (more in After-meeting)
Ar-Pharazon's topic: Orc women. Tangent: nature of Orcs.

Ar-Pharazon's transcript:
You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
TurgonjustTurgon has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
TurgonjustTurgon: Aiya
TurgonjustTurgon: going to play a bit of CS before meeting
ArPharazonV: ok
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Varda's transcript:
You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."
VardaValar1: Aiya
VardaValar1: 'tis the Paths of the Dead
DemonicHorde69 has entered the room.
DemonicHorde69: aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Mablung : )
DemonicHorde69: work once again ill have to read the meeting later
VardaValar1: That would be cool
VardaValar1: Anything you want passed on?
VardaValar1: A howdy? : )
TurgonjustTurgon: Aiya Varda
VardaValar1: Aiya Turgon
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: both
ArPharazonV: sorry, was afk
VardaValar1: Hi Phar
VardaValar1: np
VardaValar1: Early yet
TurgonjustTurgon: in that case, back to CS I go :-)
ArPharazonV: my brother's celebrating his birthday, so I sat outside for some 15-20 minutes...
ArPharazonV: eating toast :-)
VardaValar1: I'm sure that makes sense
ArPharazonV: well, he's celebrating it in the backyard
VardaValar1: Now it makes sense : )
ArPharazonV: so I was asked to join for a few minutes, just to be....
ArPharazonV: what's the word...
ArPharazonV: gezellig, in Dutch
VardaValar1: sociable? friendly?
ArPharazonV: no, close, but not exactly....
VardaValar1: honor your brother/
TurgonjustTurgon: cozy :-)
VardaValar1: ?
ArPharazonV: cozy.. that's more 'knus', but it comes pretty close
TurgonjustTurgon: I know
TurgonjustTurgon: best thing I can think of right now :-)
VardaValar1: Probably more fun too : )
ArPharazonV: ok, dictionary translations:
ArPharazonV: pleasant, enjoyable, sociable, companionable, homely, snug, cosy
ArPharazonV: yes, it says cosy
VardaValar1: also sociable : )
ArPharazonV: I guess there really isn't a word that means it exactly...
ArPharazonV: but you get the point :-)
VardaValar1: aye : )
ArPharazonV: in other news, Cenarius is finally going down in the warcraft forum-game... down to 17 hp
TurgonjustTurgon: generally what people say after a "gezellige" avond, is *we've had fun* or *we had a good time*
ArPharazonV: gezellige avond: enjoyable evening
ArPharazonV: accordinig to dictionary
VardaValar1: Yay for dictionaries!
VardaValar1: Eowyn and Bilbo say hi. They are on adjacent computers
ArPharazonV: but anyway, I feel like I've contributed largely to the almost-downfall of Cenarius... over 25 posts in less than 3 days, 20 posts total for yesterday and the day before... is it not time we started the game in our forum?
ArPharazonV: oh, hi
ArPharazonV: Aiya to both
VardaValar1: Posted to our MeO rp lately?
ArPharazonV: no, I haven't... I think it's about time... but I really do not feel like I have much to contribute, I'd almost feel like letting you describe the complete execution of the plan, with me summarizing from my eyes in the aftermath....
ArPharazonV: anyway, that could probably be the case, as I won't have access to a computer from monday to friday, next week
FallenGlory has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya
FallenGlory: Hey
VardaValar1: How goes it, Olwe? : )
FallenGlory: Ah, alright I suppose, sick today :-(
FallenGlory: and you all?
ArPharazonV: nan mara :-)
VardaValar1: That doesn't sound so good. At least this is something you can still do : )
FallenGlory: heh, indeed
ArPharazonV: a common cold, influenza, fever?
VardaValar1: See anyone else who needs inviting?
FallenGlory: I'm guessing influenza
ArPharazonV: yes!
ArPharazonV: Fladrif
ArPharazonV: still one of my bestest friends ;-)
VardaValar1: Tried to invite twice. Give it a shot?
ArPharazonV: I have... I'll see if I can contact him in msn
DemonicHorde69: namarie all
VardaValar1: Namarie Mablung
ArPharazonV: namarie
VardaValar1: Thanks for dropping by
ArPharazonV: have fun at work ;-)
ArPharazonV: Well, I don't know how long it has been since Turgon and I started the AC2-15-day-trial, but
ArPharazonV: I think that the 15 days will be over when I get back on Friday....
TurgonjustTurgon: in those about 2-weeks I totally got tired of it
TurgonjustTurgon: in itself, the game is semi-cool to play
ArPharazonV: so today I had my official last session, and said goodbye to the members of my allegiance (some sort of guild)
TurgonjustTurgon: but graphics and such are not what I call good
ArPharazonV: and I dropped every single item I had in the allegiance hall (guildhouse), before quitting the game for the last time
ArPharazonV: it was strange, but I had already made several friends in those 2 weeks
ArPharazonV: including somebody from the Netherlands, Leiden in fact, so pretty close to my own home
ArPharazonV: just too bad neither of us knows each other's real name, so no way to visit each other, or even recognize each other in any way in real life
ArPharazonV: he may even be in my class as far as I know :-)
VardaValar1: Exchange of email perhaps? or AIM?
VardaValar1: Any of them Tolkien fans you would want to bring here?
ArPharazonV: nothing, all we have is each other's nickname
VardaValar1: Too late to get a contact?
ArPharazonV: I don't know, haven't really talked to anybody about that... I did not have that much contact with any player, except Turgon :-)
VardaValar1: That's up to you guys, just a way to keep friends with you
ArPharazonV: but it's too late now, I think
VardaValar1: How many people here are no longer afk?
FladrifV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Fladrif : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya
FladrifV: Aiya
FladrifV: made it trough Rotd
VardaValar1: Return of the Dragon?
ArPharazonV: completely? all 10 maps?
FladrifV: yes
FladrifV: played most of maps 2 times deu to crashes
VardaValar1: ouch
FladrifV: due? deu?
FladrifV: dunno how to spell it :-)
ArPharazonV: yeah, I'd say.... due, by the way...
VardaValar1: due
FladrifV: thanks
ArPharazonV: that Darky28 needs to fix a few bugs
VardaValar1: Bnet has been crashing Diablo a bit too, not enough server space for ladder guys I guess
VardaValar1: Is today some special day? No one here hardly
FladrifV: the ultimate vacation day?
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Shall we make a quick meeting?
FladrifV: ok
ArPharazonV: it's so funny.... over a year the entire community praised Darky for his work on the Spiderqueen, and were begging for him to finish the map
ArPharazonV: *campaign

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
VardaValar1: Member News:
ArPharazonV: and now, the forums are swarming with bugs and stuff, and everybody's disappointed....
VardaValar1: 126 full members listed on the Membership page
ArPharazonV: ok, will shut up
VardaValar1: Any other Member news?

VardaValar1: Web News:
VardaValar1: Tolkien Encyclopedia:
VardaValar1: one new article
VardaValar1: "Elmo" by Varda
VardaValar1: News page:
VardaValar1: new Quote feature, randomly coming up for each reload
FladrifV: nice
VardaValar1: Feel free to email me your quotes said by Tolkien characters if you would like them included
VardaValar1: My first JavaScript for the web : )
ArPharazonV: heh, I actually refreshed the page dozens of times to see all the quotes ;-)
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: All Fellowship, plan to add Two Towers for variety
FladrifV: masive page hits on the couters ;-)
VardaValar1: Keep you clicking ;-)
VardaValar1: Don't think I have a counter
VardaValar1: It's there to use or not, counted or not : )
ArPharazonV: that's a good thing about firefox, it automatically refreshes a page if you reopen it in the history.... so all I had to do was click previous and next all the time ;-)
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Any other Web news?
FladrifV: 2nd java script for you
FladrifV: java counter
VardaValar1: I can put up counters, just didn't care

VardaValar1: Gaming News:
VardaValar1: D2X Ladder had another Uber-Diablo sighting, but the game crashed
VardaValar1: One way to get rid of the old boy, but not very satisfying
VardaValar1: Any other game news?
VardaValar1: This is where you put in all the goodies you were talking about earlier : )
ArPharazonV: well, I guess AC2 was a personal thing.. not really news for the guild
VardaValar1: AC2 stands for?
ArPharazonV: the trial has been out for ages, as far as I can tell
ArPharazonV: Asheron's Call 2
VardaValar1: ah, thanks. Heard of that : )
ArPharazonV: and Rotd I mentioned last week
VardaValar1: How about your suggestion to start another rp game?
VardaValar1: on our forum
ArPharazonV: rp game? no, just the game we've been talking about earlier, unless we're talking about different things
ArPharazonV: you know, the character elimination
ArPharazonV: but I have a small bit of news, just trivial, but nice to mention
VardaValar1: Please do
ArPharazonV: I finally made it to Lance Corporal in the Notd map in TFT, finally went over 1000 experience... and after a few sessions today I ended up over 1300. I'm finally getting the hang of that game :9
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: Congrats :-)
FladrifV: I got some game news too
VardaValar1: Are you TFT guys able to find other guild members to play with ok?
VardaValar1: Fladrif, go ahead
ArPharazonV: well, actually, I haven't played with other guildmembers for quite a while... except for the occasional game with Turgon or Fladrif
ArPharazonV: ok go ahead
VardaValar1: They count : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
FladrifV: I would say that my bzflag server is always up
FladrifV: and availible for guild members
VardaValar1: Very generous!
FladrifV: Its running on my server so no need to worry about its up or not
FladrifV: I will register a more valar guild name for it
FladrifV: any sugestions for the name?
VardaValar1: Please email something about it you would like to have put on the News, and send to both me and Eonwe
VardaValar1: What do you have now?
FladrifV: farmer magoth had mailed already about it
ArPharazonV: magoth.... heh.... sounds cool
FladrifV: but I want to make a more tolkien name of it
ArPharazonV: like the crossover between morgoth and maggot
VardaValar1: aye : )
FladrifV: :P
ArPharazonV: the EVIL farmer maggot
FladrifV: :P
FladrifV: r=t
VardaValar1: That would let you bring in others outside the guild or outside ents
FladrifV: so they will be rememberd of my hosting
VardaValar1: moot meaning meeting
VardaValar1: Sneaky way of mentioning you without mentioning you : )
FladrifV: yes
VardaValar1: entmoot is good, aye, easy to remember
FladrifV: ok I go register it now
FladrifV: brb
ArPharazonV: I always get the cjb mixed up....
VardaValar1: moot is short, maybe hasty
VardaValar1: which?
VardaValar1: A hasty ent, that
ArPharazonV: jcb, bjc, cbj....
VardaValar1: thanks
VardaValar1: c jabber? : )
ArPharazonV: perhaps....
FladrifV: or do you know a better free ip adres linker ?
VardaValar1: jabber as in chat
VardaValar1: Arathorn or Farmer might have some idea there, but not I, sorry
FladrifV: ok for now :-)
VardaValar1: Very cool
VardaValar1: and very generous
FladrifV: hmmz
FladrifV: already taken
VardaValar1: How about just moot?
FladrifV: :P
VardaValar1: or Fladrifmoot
VardaValar1: fladrif would be good too if you can get it
FladrifV: only one that was free
VardaValar1: fladrif free?
ArPharazonV: Fladmoot
FladrifV: you know btw what a wolbeestje is?
FladrifV: fladrif is free
ArPharazonV: beeeeeeh
VardaValar1: some kind of animal?
FladrifV: yes
ArPharazonV: bèèèèèèh
VardaValar1: wood animal?
VardaValar1: woods I mean
FladrifV: woll is whool
FladrifV: -l
VardaValar1: sheep?
FladrifV: yes :-)
VardaValar1: neat
ArPharazonV: right, what I was hinting...
ArPharazonV: literally translated as a woolbeastie
VardaValar1: beastie and beastje were close for the guess
FladrifV: indeed
VardaValar1: Any further news? comments? suggestions? chuckles?
ArPharazonV: *chuckles*
VardaValar1: There's one!
ArPharazonV: still no beta-mail....
VardaValar1: Good luck

VardaValar1: Tolkien topics before I stick you with one? : )
ArPharazonV: orc women?
VardaValar1: could try that one
VardaValar1: They surely existed
VardaValar1: The elves that ran from Orome were of both genders
ArPharazonV: the movie suggests they are created out of mud, but we all know PJ was a little bending the story
VardaValar1: They had children in the actual text, reproduced in the normal manner of Arda
VardaValar1: Suggests Sauron or Morgoth changed them genetically
VardaValar1: Otherwise they had to re-work every kid, lot of trouble
ArPharazonV: well, there are lots of Orc-topics which could arise from this... immortality, agelessness, fate after death
ArPharazonV: the possibilities of genetic engineering
VardaValar1: They may have been reproduced without souls, like copies rather than new life?
VardaValar1: Apparently some ancient orcs
VardaValar1: Longevity would be difficult for cannon fodder types
VardaValar1: I wonder how well they healed?
ArPharazonV: bodies without souls? they would be lifeless drones without any form of intelligence
ArPharazonV: well, perhaps not lifeless
VardaValar1: That would not be right then, as they had their own thoughts
VardaValar1: So they had souls
VardaValar1: They did not seem to have any good afterlife to look forward to
ArPharazonV: but a ...hroa, was it spelled?... without a fea would surely create an interesting lifeform
VardaValar1: might need brains? ; )
VardaValar1: sorry, zombie joke
ArPharazonV: braaaaaaains
FladrifV: its up and running :-)
VardaValar1: No fea, would be robotic, like the first dwarves of Aule
VardaValar1: Woot!
VardaValar1: Congrats Fladrif!
ArPharazonV: heh, that reminded me of the latest WTF comics....
ArPharazonV: zombies and undead
FladrifV: don't go to the site its not tolkien style :-)
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: Is it your site?
FladrifV: yup
ArPharazonV: oh, that site
FladrifV: LOL
ArPharazonV: he does have some pretty pictures, though
ArPharazonV: created on pc
VardaValar1: Why should we not go there?
FladrifV: nothing to do with tolkien
ArPharazonV: well, for starters, it's Dutch :-)
FladrifV: and everybody likes my artwork
VardaValar1: Well, would you like to make a simple front page for the guild?
FladrifV: so I would become to spoild
VardaValar1: I suspect you mean young men like it : )
ArPharazonV: 'click this link if you're a valarguild-member'
VardaValar1: Dutch is ok, might have a link for English speakers?
VardaValar1: Click here if you are some illiterate who can't read Dutch?
TurgonjustTurgon: dang, just got 22/11 score on CS :-)
VardaValar1: congrats, Turgon : )
ArPharazonV: dang... that's something I should use now and then... it beats darn
FladrifV: ok I gonna make a guild site on it :-)
ArPharazonV: oh well, guess dang is positive
VardaValar1: garn is a good Black Speech word
ArPharazonV: garn?
VardaValar1: drat works : )
ArPharazonV: drat... also nice
VardaValar1: garn is Black Speech, something like darn : )
VardaValar1: fooey is fun to type
ArPharazonV: but hey, as we all know, everything beats damn, especially in the guild
VardaValar1: Try some good Elvish comments
ArPharazonV: fooey...
VardaValar1: Go kiss an orc in Elvish
ArPharazonV: bleh
VardaValar1: and bleah
ArPharazonV: bleä
VardaValar1: We can get very creative if we like
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Even poetic in a way
ArPharazonV: it's Elvish :-D
VardaValar1: cool : )
ArPharazonV: well, I just made it up, but it sure sounds Elvish
VardaValar1: Shall we declare After-meeting and let you try out the new server?
ArPharazonV: I can already hear Feanor muttering....
ArPharazonV: bleä, morgoth stole my silmarils....
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Mis-made orc spawn?
VardaValar1: You guys have a good time. Always good to see you
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: you giong?
ArPharazonV: *going
VardaValar1: Any reason I should stay?
ArPharazonV: well, I'm allowed to stay up as late as the meeting lasts
VardaValar1: Other than your sterling company of course : )
VardaValar1: ah hah!
VardaValar1: That's kind of your folks
ArPharazonV: up to over 1 hour
VardaValar1: We have so few here, not worth holding you unfortunately
ArPharazonV: so, we still have 67 minutes to spill....
VardaValar1: Maybe test out Fladrif's server : )
ArPharazonV: maybe, that could count as guild-stuff....
VardaValar1: Any other comments on orcs?
ArPharazonV: well, the color discussion we had last week
VardaValar1: Meeting already went nearly an hour, just no one here
VardaValar1: but us 3
ArPharazonV: perhaps...
ArPharazonV: what are goblins and what are orcs?
ArPharazonV: is there really a big difference?
VardaValar1: Orc is an umbrella name for the whole group
VardaValar1: Goblin was the word used originally in the Hobbit
ArPharazonV: is it really said in the books that Saruman crossed Orcs with Goblins, creating Uruk-hai?
VardaValar1: then it seemed to be for small orcs
VardaValar1: Go look it up and tell us : )
ArPharazonV: it is also said in the Hobbit
VardaValar1: What did Saruman cross to make Uruk-hai?
ArPharazonV: in the battle of the five Armies, that it was a Goblin-army
VardaValar1: Goblin often used for Orc in the Hobbit
ArPharazonV: but in Lotr, I think, most Orcs of the mountains died in that battle
ArPharazonV: and that would mean the leader of the Goblins was a son of the leader of the Orcs...
VardaValar1: True, most of the goblins died then and gave a semblance of peace to the region
ArPharazonV: and not to mention Gandalf slaying the Great Goblin.. how does that fit in?
VardaValar1: Tell me : )
ArPharazonV: well, he was called the Great Goblin, and Gandalf slew him in the misty mountains
ArPharazonV: what was his connection to the other orc or goblinleaders of the mountains?
ArPharazonV: was he another son?
ArPharazonV: or just the leader of a small colony?
VardaValar1: Where is the bit about the leader of the goblins being son of leader of orcs?
ArPharazonV: well, I believe it was an orcish army the dwarves slew by Moria
VardaValar1: The title of Great Goblin may be a Hobbitish rendering of the term
ArPharazonV: while it was the son of the leader of those orcs, who led the attack on Erebor
ArPharazonV: which was a Goblin-army
VardaValar1: orc and goblin can be interchangeable words also, so what is the problem?
ArPharazonV: well, that brings up the whole cross-breed-problem again... I'm just starting to think that entire speech in the movie was wrong...
ArPharazonV: we don't even know for sure they were bred from Elves :-)
VardaValar1: The idea of their coming from Elves is pretty well set in the books, but is shown in a way that makes it seem as if the long time has blurred the certainty
ArPharazonV: they could also be (partly) bred from humans, which would explain a bit more about the longevity of the Orcish lives and such
VardaValar1: JRRT may have regretted that choice of origins later, but he did use it.
VardaValar1: The bit about being more able to handle sunlight is important too
ArPharazonV: well, it was a major point of discussion, which can be partly followed in the Histories
ArPharazonV: the origin of the Orcs
ArPharazonV: in part 10 or 11 I believe
VardaValar1: But he seems to have wound up actually using Elves as Orc ancestors
VardaValar1: It was one of the things most abhorrent to Eru
ArPharazonV: yeah, for the most part, but there was also the idea of Swarthy Men used to breed them
ArPharazonV: if those two were mixed together, it would explain quite a bit
Aerandir V has entered the room.
VardaValar1: A lot of messing with whatever they used in torment to change them to the eventual Orc, no matter the origin
VardaValar1: Aiya Aerandir!
Aerandir V: aiya
VardaValar1: Talking about orcs
ArPharazonV: if human souls were not reused, but came directly from Eru, and went right back, that may explain the fate of dead Orcs
VardaValar1: If they were mixed souls, I wonder what happened. Void them?
ArPharazonV: I personally believe it was both a matter of this and that...
ArPharazonV: mixed souls?
ArPharazonV: well, there is the obvious statement
VardaValar1: Mixing races, mixing souls, mixing after-lives
ArPharazonV: every being with mortal blood, with only rare exceptions, is mortal
ArPharazonV: and has a mortal fate
VardaValar1: And if you start with the wreckage of Elves?
ArPharazonV: that would mean, that as soon as Men became a part of the breeding proces, Orcs would gradually become mortal...
ArPharazonV: as more of them gained human blood
Aerandir V: there are suggestions that orcs are just a mockery of elves as the trolls are to ents in the book of lost tales
VardaValar1: Thinning the blood
ArPharazonV: right, but no matter the percentage, mortal blood = mortal beings
VardaValar1: They were indeed an abomination to other Elves
ArPharazonV: which is specifically stated
TurgonjustTurgon: unless they fall under the thing set for half-evles
Aerandir V: its just the idea that they arent actually perversions of elven bodies but of the idea of an elf
TurgonjustTurgon: which, expectantly, the Orcs do not fall under :-)
ArPharazonV: right, and that's what I meant with those few exceptions
VardaValar1: We are assuming humans were added at some point to explain the ability to tolerate sunlight
ArPharazonV: Earendil, Elwing, Beren, perhaps Tuor (those 2 reeeeally exceptions), Elrond, Elros, Arwen
ArPharazonV: no, not Arwen
ArPharazonV: Arwen ended up mortal
VardaValar1: But she had a choice
VardaValar1: She could have gone with Elrond and been immortal
ArPharazonV: right, she had a choice, and chose the mortal side... hey, that would exclude Elros too... don't know why I included him
FladrifV: ok my site is now in the english language ;-)
VardaValar1: !
VardaValar1: What about the Dutch site? Do you have both versions?
FladrifV: need some work going
FladrifV: I host that now under an other link
FladrifV: working on it :-)
VardaValar1: Could have a link between. Click here for English and here for Dutch?
ArPharazonV: right, many sites have that
Celebrimbor V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: well, not Dutch specifically, but you get the point
Celebrimbor V: Aiya all
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Celebrimbor!
Celebrimbor V: long time no talk
VardaValar1: hehe
Celebrimbor V: you all have been missed
VardaValar1: Plenty of it going on here
ArPharazonV: we are unravelling the mystery that is...
ArPharazonV: 'orc'
Celebrimbor V: interesting
ArPharazonV: in many aspects
VardaValar1: Orc discussion, and Fladrif is rebuilding his website for BZFlag and setting up a server for guild play
ArPharazonV: origin, reproduction, fate
Celebrimbor V: cool
ArPharazonV: the difference between Orc and Goblin
VardaValar1: Namarie guys
ArPharazonV: and I'm still not sure of the general skincolor....
ArPharazonV: namarie?
VardaValar1: black
ArPharazonV: you going?
ArPharazonV: all Orcs were black?
VardaValar1: I tried to keep the meeting to one hour
VardaValar1: You wanted an extra hour :-)
ArPharazonV: an extra hour, yes
VardaValar1: Go right ahead, but please save the rest of it
ArPharazonV: so a total of 2 hours
ArPharazonV: heh
VardaValar1: email it to me
ArPharazonV: sure, will do that
VardaValar1: I've seen them run seven hours
VardaValar1: thanks, saved to this point
ArPharazonV: seven hours...
ArPharazonV: omg..
Ar-Pharazon's transcript:
ArPharazonV: that would mean for us until 6 am
VardaValar1: yep
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie
ArPharazonV: if Orcs were black, why did both Warcraft and Morrowind make them green?
VardaValar1: Easier to see
ArPharazonV: Red when powered up?
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Aerandir V: algae?
ArPharazonV: heh
Aerandir V: red war paint
ArPharazonV: well, actually, they drank Mannoroth's blood, and they turned red
ArPharazonV: and slowly they lost their red color again
ArPharazonV: although Orcs were green in Warcraft 1 and 2...
Aerandir V: ive never played warcraft
ArPharazonV: and they were red on Draenor in Warcraft 3....
ArPharazonV: very odd
ArPharazonV: Blizzard, I see a plothole!
Aerandir V: did tolkien come up with the actual "orc" or is it a figure from "real" world ledgends?
Aerandir V: like dragons
ArPharazonV: Hmm... I read somewhere about that
ArPharazonV: I think it was the first time the word was used in that sense
ArPharazonV: that he got it from 'Orca' or something
Aerandir V: i just wondered if tolkien invented orc or if it is based on actual history
FallenGlory: Gotta go
FallenGlory: See ya
FallenGlory has left the room.
ArPharazonV: hang on, lemme get the book
Aerandir V: he got dragons from legends that were recorded before middle earth
Aerandir V: orc could have come the same way. the dictionary says it is another name for orca or killer whale
ArPharazonV: ah, got it
FladrifV: does anyone have a non copirighted picture of a ent? :-)
ArPharazonV: Many of the nasty creatures who serve Sauron and Saruman work and live in a fiery, underground hell. That serves them perfectly.
ArPharazonV: It's not only their origin according to the history of Middleearth, it's also their origin in Tolkien's imagination.
ArPharazonV: Their name comes from the Roman god the underworld, Orcus, which is also the Latin word for Hell itself.
ArPharazonV: *of the
ArPharazonV: That was the first part of the section, I'll summarize the rest
ArPharazonV: He wasn't the first time to use it as a name for a monster, the name was also used in Beowulf, for a seamonster probably based on the killerwhale, the Orca
Aerandir V: so all the goblin like orcs in fantasy stories today ae all based on tolkiens original invention of orcs?
ArPharazonV: Tolkien's Orcs are more like the dwarves of legend.
Aerandir V: the killer whale is called orca in old english i think
ArPharazonV: In fact, the word Goblin was used several times before, in older stories, and that's where Tolkien got his inspiration.
ArPharazonV: like the stories of a guy named George Macdonald, especially 'The princess and the Goblin'
Aerandir V: but using orc for the name of the goblin creatures is tolkiens idea isnt it?
ArPharazonV: in which the Goblins were a lot like those inTolkien, with the exception of their greatest weakness, their tender feet
ArPharazonV: but orc for those same creatures was indeed new
ArPharazonV: indeed Tolkiens idea
ArPharazonV: the word 'Orc' was thus at first used for the Orca's in Beowulf, yes, Old English
ArPharazonV: but it was never used before as the Goblin creatures
Aerandir V: there are so many fantasy stories that use orcs that I thought that it must have been around western culture for a long time
Aerandir V: but it seems that tolkien made that influence
ArPharazonV: yep
ArPharazonV: just like he brought the Nordish Elves back, replacing the Shakespeare-fairies
ArPharazonV: and suddenly, when we think Elves, I don't think of those tiny shiny fairies/pixies anymore....
ArPharazonV: like those Tinkerbell-creatures
ArPharazonV: I mean.... can you believe Tinkerbell (I hope that's how it's spelled) and Legolas are originally the same species?
Aerandir V: tolkien diddnt like shakespeare
Aerandir V: he diddnt like shakespeares elves either
ArPharazonV: could it be that he not liked Shakespeare because of the elves?
Aerandir V: mabey he thought that shakespeare was perverting european legends
Aerandir V: or something like that
Aerandir V: england had already been rid of its mythologies
Celebrimbor V has left the room.
Aerandir V: the story of turin turambar has a very "shakespearean" ending(but i dont think it was influenced by shakespeare)
ArPharazonV: I mean, I grew up thinking Elves (or 'Elfjes' in Dutch) were tiny creatures, smaller than a man's hand, with pink wings and throwing around fairy-dust....
ArPharazonV: and then I read Tolkien....
ArPharazonV: boy, was I surprised
Aerandir V: i imagined them as the 3 foot tall, guys with large bald heads that help out santa claus
ArPharazonV: heh
Aerandir V: I even had that in my head when i first read the hobbit and they went to rivendell
ArPharazonV: that's how I see leprechauns now.... but they live in Ireland, and not the north pole :-)
ArPharazonV: and that's because of some movie I saw not too long ago...
Aerandir V: i started to read LOTR with those guys in mind about legolas , but LOTR was above my reading level and i never tried to read it until the peter jackson movie
ArPharazonV: I read it waaay before I heard of the movie
ArPharazonV: well, 2 or 3 years perhaps
ArPharazonV: I started with Lotr, after that the Hobbit, and then the lost tales 2
ArPharazonV: when I borrowed Lotr, somebody asked if I was going to read the hobbit too, and I thought of a hobbit as a raven-like bird
Aerandir V: wow
ArPharazonV: and I read Lotr.. (I don't know what I thought of Elves in that time) and I thought of hobbits as goblin-like creatures from warcraft, with green skins and punk-hairstyles....
ArPharazonV: and after that was settled, and my perception of Hobbits and Elves finally settled in, I read LT 2
ArPharazonV: and because I had never read the Histories, the Silm, or Lost Tales 1 (they were not available at that time), I read the word Gnome for the first time....
ArPharazonV: and I was convinced Gnomes were Dwarves :-)
Aerandir V: I saw the animated movie of the hobbit once and the vague memories of that were how i read the hobbit and imagined gollum before movie two towers
Aerandir V: i read hobbit, LOTR ,sil, unfinished tales, then lost tales
ArPharazonV: I had never seen a movie or cartoon about it before I started reading lotr
Aerandir V: i began to read LOTR again after the first movie and read it through twice befor the second became my favorite book
ArPharazonV: I do recall reading a review of 'In de ban van de ring' (lotr in Dutch) in some sort of kid-magazine 8 years ago....
ArPharazonV: and hey, I don't remember much from that, but I do remember thinking of Frodo as a normal human, and the world as some sort of Dune-world....
Aerandir V: i have an uncle that thinks tolkien took his stories from legends and stuck them together to make LOTR and sil
ArPharazonV: well, in a way he did.. but he added a lot more too :-)
Aerandir V: he says he read LOTR in "the original norse"or something like that
Aerandir V: he thinks they are translations
ArPharazonV: and in a way there are, it's just that the original texts never existed....
ArPharazonV: *they
ArPharazonV: :-)
Aerandir V: tolkien did use real world legend names to name some characters
ArPharazonV: yeah, but he actually said they were translations
ArPharazonV: from the red book of westmarch ;-)
Aerandir V: the same way wizard is a rough translation into english from istari
Aerandir V: I also read that "a" is masculine in westron but"o"is masculine in english so frodo is actually froda the the "actual" writings
ArPharazonV: nope
ArPharazonV: Bilbo was Bilba, yes
ArPharazonV: but Frodo was something starting with M....
Aerandir V: is frodo one of the borrowed names?
ArPharazonV: Frodo he took from Nordish legends
ArPharazonV: it meant bravery or something
Aerandir V: i saw a web site that talked about those names found in real world legends
ArPharazonV: Maura, that was supposed to be the real name...
Aerandir V: gandalf was a dwarf in nordic legends and sauron was a fire demon
ArPharazonV: heh
Aerandir V: my uncle like to study those things and he told me this when I showed him the FOTR movie
ArPharazonV: Gandalf: not the beard! not the beard! Hey, that could actually work...
ArPharazonV: I can already see the Balrog grabbing him by the beard, and Gandalf responding with that
Aerandir V: it was also an interesting coincidence that numenore in adunaic was atalante
ArPharazonV: right
Aerandir V: and we call it atlantis
ArPharazonV: which was based on verbs he already thought of earlier... so cool
ArPharazonV: talan was to fall, or something
Aerandir V: I will search the see for he meneltarma
Aerandir V: *sea
ArPharazonV: that atalante coincedence actually placed a hope in me, a hope that it was actually true....
ArPharazonV: that al that history had actually happened
Aerandir V: and the dream of the wave tolkien had
Aerandir V: and his son had
ArPharazonV: I recently attempted a story of the end of the Fourth age, which was to end the ancient civilizations and introduce the Greeks into the history of Europe
ArPharazonV: and in a long and dreadful war, change the shape of the landmass and abolish all magic from Middleearth
Aerandir V: I always wondered what could wipe out all knowledge of gondor but allow dragons to survive
ArPharazonV: as the Dwarves and Elves slowly avoided being seen, but caught the eyes of the peoples who would become the Scandinavians
ArPharazonV: well, it would just create another Dark Age perhaps, like after what happened to the Romans
Aerandir V: tolkien says that dragons in real legends were the remnants of those created by morgoth in the elder days
Aerandir V: have you heard how much technology was lost in that dark age alone?
ArPharazonV: I'd just have to find an explanation for the total disappearance of all knowledge of the true elder days....
ArPharazonV: no more ruins of Rivendell or Gondor....
ArPharazonV: nothing of the Shire...
Aerandir V: but the red book survives
Aerandir V: after all that other destruction
ArPharazonV: no Dwarven halls, no books of lore except 1 copy of the Red Book, which was only discovered many years later by Tolkien
ArPharazonV: this would be a great war... and I'm planning on writing it down ;-)
Aerandir V: in a letter tolkien said he would leave room in his stories for others to fill with pen and paint and drama
ArPharazonV: let's see.... I read Lotr was 6000 years before the present...
ArPharazonV: the Fifth age, and that war, would be 3000 years ago, approximately 1000 bc, which could fit in with the Greeks....
Aerandir V: recorded history begins about 2000b.c.
ArPharazonV: ending with the founding of Rome on the ruins of Gondor
Aerandir V: the illiad was the first written book of the western world we know of
Aerandir V: the greek writing system was created to record it
Aerandir V: i was written about 700 to 500bc
ArPharazonV: well, this could be a great tale indeed... I'm going to write it in the nearby future
ArathornValar has left the room.
Aerandir V: it is possible to lose a lot of history. there is a roman inventor who nearly invented the steam engine
Aerandir V: it was a steel ball filled with water with 2 L shaped tubes on each side.hen heated the water would expand and force its way out of the tubes, spinning the thing like a wheel
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: but I have to go, gotta get up early tomorrow
ArPharazonV: I'll just save and mail
ArPharazonV: Namarie
Aerandir V: namarie
FladrifV: namarie
FladrifV: good luck
ArPharazonV: thnx
FladrifV: with the train ;-)
ArPharazonV: ah, right, thank you... but I think it will all turn out fine ;-)
ArPharazonV: thanks to your help
ArPharazonV: bye